The Diatessaron Knows the Marcionite Gospel?

[Stuart]

The flaw with logia theories, of which your Thomas is one, is that it requires a purpose for a collection of sayings and its circulation. Where did it come from? What assumptions does it make of the reader? It doesn't take much investigating down these avenues blows wide gaping holes in the concept of Thomas having priority.

If you are a holder of the concept of gospels as descendant from eyewitness accounts, then you have your source and reason. But I suspect this is not your theory.

The Occam's Razor test needs to be applied to each of the Thomas sayings and clearly side on Thomas as the originator, not the parallel pericopes of the gospels. And how is that done? Well first one has to look at each pericope or story and its origins; which in many cases is derived from the OT. Such settings are of course artificial. But the question remains, does the saying arise from the pericope logic and setting or has it parachuted in from a source, i.e., Thomas? One needn't go any further than that exercise (which is time consuming, as there are 113 sayings to evaluate, and quite a few more pericopes where they are found) to lay to rest Thomas priority theory.

[mlinssen]

The flaw with logia theories, of which your Thomas is one, is that it requires a purpose for a collection of sayings and its circulation. Where did it come from? What assumptions does it make of the reader? It doesn't take much investigating down these avenues blows wide gaping holes in the concept of Thomas having priority.

If you are a holder of the concept of gospels as descendant from eyewitness accounts, then you have your source and reason. But I suspect this is not your theory.

The Occam's Razor test needs to be applied to each of the Thomas sayings and clearly side on Thomas as the originator, not the parallel pericopes of the gospels. And how is that done? Well first one has to look at each pericope or story and its origins; which in many cases is derived from the OT. Such settings are of course artificial. But the question remains, does the saying arise from the pericope logic and setting or has it parachuted in from a source, i.e., Thomas? One needn't go any further than that exercise (which is time consuming, as there are 113 sayings to evaluate, and quite a few more pericopes where they are found) to lay to rest Thomas priority theory.

Well

The logia theory isn't mine, but I would argue that any logia text would be very likely to have a "historical" basis - when one collects sayings, no matter where those are from, there must be a person or text / place where they're collected from.
It surely doesn't require a purpose unless the content itself is uneventful, and you'll have great difficulty in arguing that the text of Thomas is a dime a dozen - so there obviously is a purpose behind it

What assumptions does Thomas make of its readers? That they're very well educated and intelligent and know how to read in between the lines, which is pretty much the opposite of the Christian audience

which in many cases is derived from the OT - you can't even name 5 out of the 115 to which that would apply

Thomasine priority rests solely on parallels between Thomas and the Synoptics (John has less than a handful and they're weak), and I have naturally done what you require:

https://www.academia.edu/41668680/The_7 ... al_cousins

I'm not shoving something down people's throats that won't sell on its own, Stuart: I'm an old fart with much more fruitful things to do. If you don't engage with the arguments, fine: I'll interpret that as not wanting to engage with Thomasine priority out of fear of being proven wrong about your initial discarding of it

I'm not here to repeat what I have put in writing in over 3,500 pages, all accessible for free, with tons of direct links to original sources that are publicly available to all

Thomas is not about Jesus, Christianity, or even Chrestianity: it precedes all that.
Thomas is a deeply psychological text about self salvation, about ridding oneself of Ego and Self, 1,500 years ahead of its time. It is about non duality, separation, rejection of any and all authority as well as outside opinions, and looking inward alone for any answers
It's IS got mistaken by John and everyone else, and finally ended up as the convoluted pseudo-Messiah of Christianity - yet redaction criticism demonstrates that it the source, and perhaps you'd like to try out my latest in order to refute that:

https://www.academia.edu/100743526/%CE% ... plit_patch

[davidmartin]

The flaw with logia theories, of which your Thomas is one, is that it requires a purpose for a collection of sayings and its circulation. Where did it come from? What assumptions does it make of the reader? It doesn't take much investigating down these avenues blows wide gaping holes in the concept of Thomas having priority.

you are not so much arguing against Thomas having priority as against the concept of anyone wishing to write down a teachers teachings!
the sentences of sextus is an example of another text that like Thomas is a collection of sayings, or the book of proverbs
it seems the argument against logia theories is flawed unless there is some special reason that they can exist outside of the 'Jesus movement' but not within it, surely you don't think the parables are without value or have no intrinsic merit?

[mlinssen]

The flaw with logia theories, of which your Thomas is one, is that it requires a purpose for a collection of sayings and its circulation. Where did it come from? What assumptions does it make of the reader? It doesn't take much investigating down these avenues blows wide gaping holes in the concept of Thomas having priority.

you are not so much arguing against Thomas having priority as against the concept of anyone wishing to write down a teachers teachings!
the sentences of sextus is an example of another text that like Thomas is a collection of sayings, or the book of proverbs
it seems the argument against logia theories is flawed unless there is some special reason that they can exist outside of the 'Jesus movement' but not within it, surely you don't think the parables are without value or have no intrinsic merit?

It is amusing to see how widely if not unanimously accepted theories are torn down with brute force, with suddenly the texts themselves that fit these theories having to answer for themselves, having to provide provenance and origin lest they get disqualified, oh and purpose! - at the moment that the wrong applicants enter the scene

Had there been tons of Christian stuff in Thomas in addition to his logia, none of the words or letters to them changed in any way, then it would have been proudly paraded on a pedestal by even the most appalling apologist