Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by neilgodfrey »

just one more point I'd like to make given what seems to be a focus on the question of the Vision of Isaiah being known to Paul or whoever was responsible for those epistles, .....

From Earl Doherty's Jesus Neither God Nor Man: p. 126
We should not be looking for exact correspondences between Paul's Christ and Jewish sectarian systems, or between the features of the early Christian savior and those of the Hellenistic mysteries. We can set aside the oversimplification of a direct and conscious copycatting between the Christ cult and its predecessors and contemporaries. But the obvious commonality of ideas both general and specific found across the ancient Mediterranean world is enough to allow us to recognize the Christian version of salvation as one more expression of the philosophical and religious thinking of the time, one more case of drawing on common 'in the air' ideas. Much more of that commonality is still to be examined.
Until this thread I don't think I had ever heard of the idea Paul copying from or at least having read the VoI. The AI was presented from the start as evidence of the kinds of ideas circulating at the time the letters of Paul were written. It was offered as support for the plausibility of Doherty's interpretation of Paul. He never suggested that Paul "knew" the Vision of Isaiah. In fact, he went along with the scholarship that dates the VoI towards the end of the first century.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:13 pm ... The Martyrdom of Isaiah, [Norelli] posits, was written...in order to address the problem of orthodox authorities clamping down on their visionary experiences ... to the visionary sect now experiencing "persecution" of some kind. It was added to the Vision of Isaiah in order to confirm the authority of that Vision.
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:02 pm The Martyrdom, he posits, was composed in the second century in response to authorities clamping down on visions. The visionaries wanted to save their practices and their VoI document (6-11) that they had inherited from towards the end of the first century -- that's pretty standard early dating.

The Martyrdom was composed later in the second century --- it was attached to the earlier VoI as their flagship visionary document that they wanted to preserve against the authorities. There is no question, is there, that in the chapters 5-11 we find attacks on church authorities? It has been customary to say that these verses were a latter interpolation but that is debatable in N's view.
How much weight can one place on the proposition that chapters 5-11 recount or about attacks on church authorities?

Are these relationships and the dating proposed b/c they've been and still are primarily viewed through a Christian window ?
rgprice
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by rgprice »

@neil:
In fact, he went along with the scholarship that dates the VoI towards the end of the first century.
Yes, but this is the point. Regardless of "when" anything is dated, since so much of it is relative anyway, it seems to me that the Christ we find in Vision of Isaiah more closely corresponds to the Christ described in the Pauline letters than any other source I am aware of. I'm not saying that the writer of the Paulines had necessarily read VoI, but that the Pauline letters and Vision of Isaiah seem to have a common conception of Christ the Lord. Maybe VoI actually named him Jesus in its original form, maybe not.

So
#1) Is it possible that VoI predates any other Gospels (or at least records concepts that predate any other Gospels)?
#2) Is it possible that the Christ described by Paul comes from Vision of Isaiah or is recorded in Vision of Isaiah, i.e. that Paul knew the basic story in Vision of Isaiah?
#3) Is it possible that the writers of Mark and possibly Matthew or others, were aware of Vision of Isaiah and used it or were responding to it?

Now, if the answer to those question is yes, then why was VoI written, and where did its ideas come from?

It seems to me that Norelli and others assume or conclude that VoI post-dates the other Gospels and is a later heresy.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:40 pm
How much weight can one place on the proposition that chapters 5-11 recount or about attacks on church authorities?

Are these relationships and the dating proposed b/c they've been and still are primarily viewed through a Christian window ?
3:21 to 3:31 is a pretty straightforward attack on church authorities, I think....
21. And afterwards, on the eve of His approach, His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles, and their faith, and their love and their purity.

22. And there will be much contention on the eve of [His advent and] His approach.

23. And in those days many will love office, though devoid of wisdom.

24. And there will be many lawless elders, and shepherds dealing wrongly by their own sheep, and they will ravage (them) owing to their not having holy shepherds.

25. And many will change the honour of the garments of the saints for the garments of the covetous, and there will be much respect of persons in those days and lovers of the honour of this world.

26. And there will be much slander and vainglory at the approach of the Lord, and the Holy Spirit will withdraw from many.

27. And there will not be in those days many prophets, nor those who speak trustworthy words, save one here and there in divers places,

28. On account of the spirit of error and fornication and of vainglory, and of covetousness, which shall be in those, who will be called servants of that One and in those who will receive that One.

29. And there will be great hatred in the shepherds and elders towards each other.

30. For there will be great jealousy in the last days; for every one will say what is pleasing in his own eyes.

31. And they will make of none effect the prophecy of the prophets which were before me, and these my visions also will they make of none effect, in order to speak after the impulse of their own hearts.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by neilgodfrey »

rgprice wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:45 pm So
#1) Is it possible that VoI predates any other Gospels (or at least records concepts that predate any other Gospels)?
#2) Is it possible that the Christ described by Paul comes from Vision of Isaiah or is recorded in Vision of Isaiah, i.e. that Paul knew the basic story in Vision of Isaiah?
#3) Is it possible that the writers of Mark and possibly Matthew or others, were aware of Vision of Isaiah and used it or were responding to it?

Now, if the answer to those question is yes, then why was VoI written, and where did its ideas come from?

It seems to me that Norelli and others assume or conclude that VoI post-dates the other Gospels and is a later heresy.
#1) yes

#2) yes -- but we don't know when or how long the content of the vision was circulating around the Syrian region prior to it being written in the VoI that we have today

#3 possible but not likely. I have seen no argument to make that point -- apart from your observation that the demons in Mark know Jesus. But it's a very long stretch, I think, to move from that fact to claiming it was in response to ignorance of the demons in AI. Wrede covers the Messianic Secret pretty well. I simply can't see any structural or thematic or clear reasons of any kind to suggest Mark or Matthew were engaging in any way with VoI.


Norelli points out commonalities between Matthew's data and the VoI. That's not the same as saying the VoI knew and drew upon Matthew's gospel, of course. It points to a common milieu of ideas. Another part of the environment from which the VoI emerged is the presence of itinerant prophets - ecstatic/charismatic visionaries. The birth details overlap with details we read of a strange birth in the Odes of Solomon. Those and other connections point to the area of Antioch, in N's assessment.

The reason and point of the vision would be to show that God had conquered death through his beloved and all demonic powers fell down and worshiped him, and the Beloved. The salvation of the visionary faithful is assured. No more struggle. That's the vision -- a message of total victory. But later we have problems for these visionaries and charismatics and a different message, one of struggle and trial in persecution, is added with the narrative of the Martyrdom of Isaiah.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:20 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:40 pm How much weight can one place on the proposition that chapters 5-11 recount or about attacks on church authorities?
Are these relationships and the dating proposed b/c they've been and still are primarily viewed through a Christian window ?
3:21 to 3:31 is a pretty straightforward attack on church authorities, I think ...
Based on? ... "His approach, His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles" ??

3.21 And afterwards, on the eve of His approach, His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles, and their faith, and their love and their purity.

There seems to be a tension there with, "His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles"

ie. being at odds with the Christian story.

'Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles' comes to mind
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:17 pm Based on? ... "His approach, His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles" ??

[box-beige]3.21 And afterwards, on the eve of His approach, His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles, and their faith, and their love and their purity.[/box]

There seems to be a tension there with, "His disciples will forsake the teachings of the Twelve Apostles"

ie. being at odds with the Christian story.

'Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles' comes to mind
I don't understand your question, sorry. The passage is describing the imminent doom to be brought about by the coming of the heavenly Judge upon the elders and shepherds who have strayed from the truth and are neglecting and seeing the decline of the activities of the prophets.
rgprice
Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by rgprice »

The reason and point of the vision would be to show that God had conquered death through his beloved and all demonic powers fell down and worshiped him, and the Beloved. The salvation of the visionary faithful is assured. No more struggle. That's the vision -- a message of total victory.
Maybe this is getting somewhere.

There are a lot of claims about Belial in the War Scroll, specifically about defeating Belial. In the War Scroll we see a lot of proactive prophecy, i.e. many of the prophecies/visions in the War Scroll are not retroactive narrations of events that have happened, they actually imagine what the future will be.

War Scroll:
Col 13:
You appointed the Prince of Light from of old to assist us, for in His lot are all sons of righteousness and all sprits of truth are in his dominion. You yourself made Belial for the pit, an angel of malevolence, his dominion is in darkness and his counsel is to condemn and convict. All the spirits of his lot, the angels of destruction, walk in accord with the rule of darkness, for it is their only desire. But we, in the lot of Your truth, rejoice in Your mighty hand. We rejoice in Your salvation, and revel in Your help and Your peace.

It goes on, talking about how the Sons of Light will defeat the Sons of Darkness.

Blessed is Your name, O God of loving-kindness, the One who kept the covenant for our forefathers. Throughout all our generations You have made Your mercies wonderous for the remnant of the people during the dominion of Belial.

etc., etc. So, the War Scroll, and other writing from Qumran, present visions of how God will defeat Belial/Belair/Satan. They identify Belial as the "Lord of this world".

Vision of Isaiah seems much closer to the War Scroll to me than any canonical material. It uses a lot of the same language and has a more similar worldview.

The War Scroll foresees how God will aid the Sons of Light in fighting against the "forces of Belial" and how God will defeat Belial himself.

...and in the seventh lot, when the great hand of God shall be lifted up against Belial and against all the forces of his dominion for an eternal slaughter...

Is the Vision of Isaiah a competing view to these visions of war? The War Scroll talks about how this will need to be accomplished via a massive conflict. But the Vision of Isaiah says that Belial will be defeated via trickery, without need for a conflict.

Could the narrative of Vision of Isaiah have preceded the First Jewish-Roman War, being a competing vision in opposition to those stoking violence?

I guess the main question is, does the Vision of Isaiah require a recognizable event or can it have been written in a manner similar to the War Scroll, in which it is projecting something that had not occurred? Many prophecies and visions were retrospective narrations of things that had occurred, but not all of them were. So would it make sense to write a vision that talks about the descent of the Beloved of God (the Prince of Light) who would trick Belial into executing him so that he could descend into his realm to defeat him, if no such event had yet occurred?

I think many assume that such a vision can only be a retrospective account of an actual execution or as a response to pre-existing narratives about Jesus.

Vision of Isaiah:
And we ascended, he and I, upon the firmament, and there I saw the great battle of Satan and his might opposing the loyal followers (honorantiae) of God, and one surpassed the other in envy. For just as it is on earth, so also is it in the firmament, because replicas of what are in the firmament are on earth.

And I said to the angel, `What is this war and envy and struggle?' And in reply he said to me, 'This is the devil's war and he will not rest until He whom you wish to see comes to slay him with the spirit of His virtue.'

But could the earliest version of the VoI narrative not have simply developed on its own as an alternative vision for the defeat of Belial that did not rely on war?

Alternatively, could the Vision of Isaiah have been written following the war, providing an alternative hope for the defeat of Belial, after the war had failed.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by Giuseppe »

Jean Magne has an entire paragraph where he argues that a particular matter where both Gnostics and Judaizers did efforts to find a form of compromise was the birth of Jesus by Mary, where both a birth and the docetism (note that also the birth by Holy Spirit is a subtle form of survived docetism) satisfy respectively the two sides, hence the hypothesis of a harmonization in action is not so strange to interpret correctly Ascension of Isaiah.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Paul and the Vision of Isaiah

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 9:37 pm I don't understand your question, sorry. The passage is describing the imminent doom to be brought about by the coming of the heavenly Judge upon the elders and shepherds who have strayed from the truth and are neglecting and seeing the decline of the activities of the prophets.
What makes you think there's church authorities involved? ie. Christian church authorities
Post Reply