Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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MrMacSon
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Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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While not about Christianity or directly related to Christianity, this statement, if true, might have implications to understanding Christianity or its [wider] influence/s (+/- implications for understanding other contemporaneous 'religions', especially those in 'the East')...

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Jagd
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Re: Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:49 pm While not about Christianity or directly related to Christianity, this statement, if true, might have implications to understanding Christianity or its [wider] influence/s (+/- implications for understanding other contemporaneous 'religions', especially those in 'the East')...
It may be more of a matter of aniconism, since the Buddha was first depicted as a human in the Greco-Buddhist sculptures of Gandhara (1st century AD; older than Ajanta). Before that, he was "depicted" as an empty throne, the Bodhi tree, the dharma wheel, etc. It appears that any human depictions were influenced by the Greeks coming into the region, specifically Central Asia, which is supposedly why the Buddha in the Gandhara sculptures appear much akin to Greco-Roman figures. It also appears that anthropomorphic art was generally unpopular from the Vedic era until around the 1st century AD.

We don't get a biography of the Buddha until the Buddhacharita of the 1st century AD, which is an epic poem and not necessarily "holy scripture" to Buddhists. There are information of the life of the Buddha in the older Buddhist canon (which has been put together by Bhikkhu Bodhi) but there wasn't and still really isn't any sacred biography. In fact, the are details of the life of the Buddha in the older canon often contradict the later legends/life stories, sometimes in major ways.

I think it's a terrific reference point for oldest Christianity, and there are curious things that parallel the life of the Buddha and the life of Christ that aren't really evident in other legendary ancient figures. I can only think of Zarathustra and Ahriman as an example of the temptation by an evil foe story, and even then (as far as I understand) our dating of Zoroastrian stories is extremely blurry.
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Re: Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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Jagd wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:31 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 12:49 pm While not about Christianity or directly related to Christianity, this statement, if true, might have implications to understanding Christianity or its [wider] influence/s (+/- implications for understanding other contemporaneous 'religions', especially those in 'the East') ...
It may be more of a matter of aniconism, since the Buddha was first depicted as a human in the Greco-Buddhist sculptures of Gandhara (1st century AD; older than Ajanta). Before that, he was "depicted" as an empty throne, the Bodhi tree, the dharma wheel, etc. It appears that any human depictions were influenced by the Greeks coming into the region, specifically Central Asia, which is supposedly why the Buddha in the Gandhara sculptures appear much akin to Greco-Roman figures. It also appears that anthropomorphic art was generally unpopular from the Vedic era until around the 1st century AD.
Cheers. Interesting. While aniconism is the absence of material representations—ie.icons—of the [theologial] worlds of various cultures, it's a term largely applied to the early monotheistic Abrahamic religions — I wonder if the Roman empire's deification and iconography for its emperor, starting of course with Julius and (his adopted son, his great-nephew) August Caesar, was a major impetus for the genesis of 'iconification' more widely, including outside the empire.

Jagd wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:31 pm I think it's a terrific reference point for oldest Christianity, and there are curious things that parallel the life of the Buddha and the life of Christ that aren't really evident in other legendary ancient figures. I can only think of Zarathustra and Ahriman as an example of the temptation by an evil foe story, and even then (as far as I understand) our dating of Zoroastrian stories is extremely blurry.
  • Interesting. Cheers.
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Re: Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:02 pm While aniconism is the absence of material representations—ie.icons—of the [theologial] worlds of various cultures, it's a term largely applied to the early monotheistic Abrahamic religions
Trust me, if I could remove all the Abrahamic associations/presuppositions in the wording we use I would. Words like "pagan", "gnostic", and even "religion" only get in the way of our understanding of the ancient world. IMO, the term "religion" shouldn't even be applied to when you look at "Hinduism", Buddhism, Shinto, "Chinese folk religion", etc.
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:02 pm I wonder if the Roman empire's deification and iconography for its emperor, starting of course with Julius and (his adopted son, his great-nephew) August Caesar, was a major impetus for the genesis of 'iconification' more widely, including outside the empire.
That is a terrific point, I'll look into any imperial (propagandistic?) motivation behind the advent of anthropomorphic images in the region. Also good to note that these Greco-Buddhist sculptures feature the Buddha flanked by Indra and Herakles, with Herkales eventually turning into the Vajrapani figure represented in all kinds of Buddhist cultures, including the Shaolin, Tibetan, and Japanese traditions. Otherwise, we also see all kinds of Greek figures in Indo-Greek art (2nd century BC-1st century AD), including Apollo, Daphne, Athena, Poseidon, Herakles, Aphrodite, and the Nereids. Syncretism was strong in this era.

(I now wonder if the origin of the walking on water ability we see in Christ and the Buddha stems from the common origin of the Orion myth)
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Re: Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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Jagd wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:36 pm Trust me, if I could remove all the Abrahamic associations/presuppositions in the wording we use I would. Words like "pagan", "gnostic", and even "religion" only get in the way of our understanding of the ancient world.
Yep, it's all centred on Christianity and the other: even "Gentile"— even though it refers to non-Jews, the way "pagan" refers to non-Christians—is a word we largely know about b/c Gentiles are framed as part of the early Christian collective.

Jagd wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:36 pm IMO, the term "religion" shouldn't even be applied to when you look at "Hinduism", Buddhism, Shinto, "Chinese folk religion", etc.
Jörg Rüpke, one of if not the most eminent scholars of Roman era philology and 'religions' thinks 'religion' should not even be applied to pre-Christian belief systems.

Jagd wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:36 pm ... the advent of anthropomorphic images ...
Good point. Anthropomorphization may be the predominant theme (I had been thinking about it in terms of Serapis and other 'deities' infusing the eastern Mediterranean: perhaps Mithras, Osiris, etc. Maybe even the Roman and Greek gods).
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Re: Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:41 pm Yep, it's all centred on Christianity and the other: even "Gentile"— even though it refers to non-Jews, the way "pagan" refers to non-Christians—is a word we largely know about b/c Gentiles are framed as part of the early Christian collective.
I never made that connection before but wow, now I'm doubly annoyed by the word "pagan". To put it crudely, it sounds like the Christians wanted to create their own "gentile" outsider group.
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:41 pm Jörg Rüpke, one of if not the most eminent scholars of Roman era philology and 'religions' thinks 'religion' should not even be applied to pre-Christian belief systems.
Terrific! I'll read into his reasoning and work - I might go ahead and order his book Pantheon, it sounds tremendous. It sounds like part of his thesis is that the distinction of anything as a "religion" occurred with the rise of Christianity. Even ancient ("Second Temple") Judaism appeared to be less of a "religion", with the term "Judaism" itself deriving from the Greek exonym for, basically, "what those Judaeans do".
MrMacSon wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:41 pm Good point. Anthropomorphization may be the predominant theme (I had been thinking about it in terms of Serapis and other 'deities' infusing the eastern Mediterranean: perhaps Mithras, Osiris, etc. Maybe even the Roman and Greek gods).
Might be good to imagine how many of such images we have probably lost due to their destruction by Christian and Islamic forces, and how many more unfound images are being destroyed all the time due to Middle Eastern warfare.

But anway, there's also the ancient idea that a statue of a god was, in a way, the god themself (I saw such an attitude persisting even when I was in India, and it's still evident in the way the Eastern Orthodox look at their icons). Perhaps that outlook was introduced to the Central Asian Buddhists, who were then spurred to similarly make their "god" real.
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Re: Representations of buddhas as human beings first appear in India around the 2nd-3rd centuries CE(?)

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Jagd wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:36 pm That is a terrific point, I'll look into any imperial (propagandistic?) motivation behind the advent of anthropomorphic images in the region. Also good to note that these Greco-Buddhist sculptures feature the Buddha flanked by Indra and Herakles, with Herkales eventually turning into the Vajrapani figure represented in all kinds of Buddhist cultures, including the Shaolin, Tibetan, and Japanese traditions. Otherwise, we also see all kinds of Greek figures in Indo-Greek art (2nd century BC-1st century AD), including Apollo, Daphne, Athena, Poseidon, Herakles, Aphrodite, and the Nereids. Syncretism was strong in this era.
If I recall correctly, the custom of having the Buddha Shakyamuni portrayed as seated in lotus fashion arose due to etiquette/artistic conventions among Kushan rulers, who portrayed themselves as seated in such a way. These same Kushans apparently were responsible for the growth of Mahayana Buddhism.
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