Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

I've often said that Jesus accomplished nothing. While promising to destroy the Jewish house of God is hardly something we might expect to be celebrated in an ecumenical age such as the one we live in, does anyone dispute that this is the one important 'thing' that he might have been thought to have 'accomplished' in his lifetime and beyond?

I'd argue that just as in former ages the 'divine punishment of the Jews' was the centerpiece of Christianity we live in an age where this has been systematically covered up and downplayed much as I might argue Judaism has played down its hope for a messiah who would conquer the Gentiles. Ecumenism. There is no historical vantage point which allows us to get a 'clear picture' of what happened before. Always branches and trees to obstruct our view of what was.
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Irish1975
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]'

Post by Irish1975 »

What exactly did Jesus do or say against the Temple, and why would it have mattered to anyone? I refuse to believe that the “cleansing” episode was any kind of threat, if one can even believe it. And prophesying “the day will come…” is just standard prophetic invective against Jerusalem going back many centuries.

How could the Temple authorities, much less the Romans, feel threatened by such a figure? Did Jesus have seigeworks, or an army at his command? He was supposed to be a wandering carpenter with a few dozen companions, male and female. The Temple was a massive edifice in stone. So what are we even talking about?
Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

I refuse to believe that the “cleansing” episode was any kind of threat
The 'cleansing episode' as told in a document or documents arranged by a specific editor for a specific literary purpose. Sort of like this photo.

Image

You see the photo says Epstein was a good guy. He's friends with the Pope. Anyone who says something bad about Epstein hates Catholics. This is the kind of set up logic the Catholic version of the 'I will destroy [the temple]' stories are intended for.

Instead of 'Epstein is a pervert pedophile' the photo says 'good man.' Before it was all these business guys whispering, 'you really should invest with this guy. He has the best parties.' Just like, I would argue, the post 70 CE world saying, 'you know there was this guy Jesus is said to have been a God who threatened to destroy the temple of the Jews and then a few years later after they punished him, it was REALLY destroyed.'
Giuseppe
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Giuseppe »

I have heard a fool Christian apologist argue that Jesus couldn't be the Samaritan false prophet slain by Pilate because that Samaritan false prophet very probably wanted the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, while the historical Jesus was too much "a true Jew" for wanting something of similar.
Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

That's another annoying thing about this field. Because we have scribbles written on the back of napkins found in garbage dumps and then preserved in the libraries of one tradition from antiquity people act like Josephus preserves 'snapshots' of what actually happened. So these guys act like we're taking a time machine to first century Judea when we read Josephus EVEN THOUGH he claims among other things that the Jewish rebels when they had captured Jerusalem started dressing up like transvestites and doing all sorts of licentious things.

In short, it's garbage in, garbage out.

We have bad sources.
We have no idea for the most part what happened in the first century outside of some broad brush strokes.
And that most of our reports are bad and unreliable AT BEST deliberately misleading or outright lies AT WORST.
AND WHAT'S MOST RIDICULOUS OF ALL, we expect 'professional scholars' to lead us out of this wasteland of literary garbage EVEN THOUGH that would be tantamount to admitting that they wallow in a field of literary garbage which has no inherit value other than the depressing reality that human history in its most critical period for the West is total bunk. Sure that's going to happen. Kids will line up in droves to learn that.
It would suffer a worse fate than CRT because - most importantly - it doesn't have the support of a large portion of the American public.
One thing to say AMERICAN history = racist lies.
Another thing to say that the spiritual history of the West was defined by a lie.
Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

And the CRT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_ ... segregated. comparison is apt. Does anyone really doubt that American history is dotted with racism? Of course not. So what's the fuss about?

Does anyone really doubt that the documents in our possession viz. the gospel, the letters of Paul were doctored by the orthodox when they fell into their possession as the Marcionites claim?

Does anyone really believe that when we have to choose between (a) Marcionite claims that Paul wrote the entire NT and the orthodox came along falsified his gospel (separating it viz Evangelion da-Mapharreshe) and corrupting his letters and ultimately adding newly forged ones and forged documents by assistants like Luke and (b) the Marcionites falsified our canon that (a) is the more correct answer?

There is a parallel between CRT and what I would call 'critical orthodoxy theory' COT. Both represent inconvenient truths which will be resisted by the white majority.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Charles Wilson »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:30 amThere is no historical vantage point which allows us to get a 'clear picture' of what happened before. Always branches and trees to obstruct our view of what was.
Ummm...No.

We do know what happened. A Coup was planned against Herod. Herod is at the palace in Jericho, having his dinky consumed by worms. Ptolemy, the brother of Nicholas of Damascus, carries Herod's Seal and - LO! - by a Miracle, produces a Document that shows that Herod made a last minute change in the Will: Archelaus has been made Suit-Dummy...Successor to Herod. Herod then dies a week-ish too soon, allowing a Counter-Revolution to be formed.

"Three days and three nights...?"

Tuesday Night/Wednesday - Day 1.
Wednesday Night/Thursday - Day 2.
Thursday Night/Friday - Day 3.

The Mishmarot Group Immer is behind the Plot and the Story is in both the NT and Josephus:

Mark 6: 48 - 49 (RSV):

[48] And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them,
[49] but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out

Josephus, Wars..., Book 2 (THACKARAY Translation):

“And now the feast of unleavened bread, which the Jews call Passover, came round; it is an occasion for the contribution of the multitude of sacrifices, and a vast crowd streamed in from the country for the ceremony. The promoters of the mourning for the doctors stood in a body of the Temple, procuring recruits for their faction. This alarmed Archelaus, who, wishing to prevent the contagion from spreading to the whole crowd, sent in a tribune in command of a cohort, with orders to restrain by force the ringleaders of the sedition...
***
"But those that were seditious on account of those teachers of the law, irritated the people by the noise and clamors they used to encourage the people in their designs; so they made an assault upon the soldiers, and came up to them, and stoned the greatest part of them, although some of them ran away wounded, and their captain among them; and when they had thus done, they returned to the sacrifices which were already in their hands...

Bilgah is on Duty for the Passover. Immer will come on Duty for the Weekly Sabbath and Re-Dedicate the New Temple not made by Human Hands.

Immer is the Lamb - " אמּר ". Archelaus orders in the Troops and 3000+ are slaughtered.
Passover and the Feast are cancelled.

And so on...

We DO know a lot about what happened.
It's there for all to see. If only you would look.

CW
Secret Alias
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

We do know what happened.
No we don't. And someone like you who spends all his time 'creatively' connecting historical event 1 with some other non-related reported event should BE THE LAST PERSON WEIGHING IN HERE. You want the most elastic view of history to further your ridiculous theories. I am saying history was not Josephus verbatim. Josephus is a road map to a particular understanding of history which may or may not have been based on facts. He undoubtedly lied about things that Justus of Tiberius did or didn't do. He made up lots of stuff. You have no interest in separating fact from fiction. You acknowledge that by your constant 'historical event 1 = unrelated historical event 2.' The rapist doesn't tend to his victims. He doesn't care about his victim's feelings or concerns. You are a rapist of texts.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Charles Wilson »

Nice response, SA.
Now, Destroy the Thesis.

Simple.

Do it. Destroy the Thesis. I'll send you a copy of the Book if you want.
Atwill sez "It's all just Literature".
OK. Literature follows Form and Logic as well.

Did Ptolemy carry Herod's Seal? Was Bilgah and Immer on Duty for the Passover and Feast of 4 BCE?

Remember Whitehead's Criticism of Empiricism: All the Good Empiricist may assert is "Bee on Flower". If you are asserting that I am a Renegade Conflator, show where the Leap goes too far.

C'mon, man!
Butch up!

Destroy the Thesis.

'N remember also: I really do wish you the Best,

CW
Charles Wilson
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Re: Jesus was Famous Because He was Alleged to Have Said 'I will destroy [the temple of Jerusalem]' Before 70 CE

Post by Charles Wilson »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:35 am
We do know what happened.
No we don't...I am saying history was not Josephus verbatim. Josephus is a road map to a particular understanding of history which may or may not have been based on facts. He undoubtedly lied about things that Justus of Tiberius did or didn't do. He made up lots of stuff.
My God in Boots, that is exactly what I've been saying for over a decade now!

Josephus, Ant..., 13, 14, 1 - 2:

"SO Demetrius came with an army, and took those that invited him, and pitched his camp near the city Shechem; upon which Alexander, with his six thousand two hundred mercenaries, and about twenty thousand Jews, who were of his party, went against Demetrius, who had three thousand horsemen, and forty thousand footmen. Now there were great endeavors used on both sides, - Demetrius trying to bring off the mercenaries that were with Alexander, because they were Greeks, and Alexander trying to bring off the Jews that were with Demetrius. However, when neither of them could persuade them so to do, they came to a battle, and Demetrius was the conqueror; in which all Alexander's mercenaries were killed, when they had given demonstration of their fidelity and courage. A great number of Demetrius's soldiers were slain also.
***
"Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country..."

You want Indirection? "Where is this 'Shechem'?"
OH!!!...It's near "Gerizim" wherever that is and whatever that means to History.
You want LIES? Demetrius Eucerus defeats Jannaeus decisively and Jewish Mercs defect to Jannaeus and Eucerus LEAVES THE COUNTRY - AFRAID!!!

You want Conflation? How about this: Eucerus committed the Abomination of Desolation. (How can I assert this? Hint: There are other Markers.)

DO IT, SA!!!

Bring the entire Conflated Edifice down!!!

CW
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