John 2:19 and the Denial that Jesus Said He wanted to Destroy the Temple

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Secret Alias
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John 2:19 and the Denial that Jesus Said He wanted to Destroy the Temple

Post by Secret Alias »

So Jesus is standing before the Sanhedrin like a modern day terrorist. Mark says:
The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death, but they did not find any. 56 Many testified falsely against him, but their statements did not agree. 57 Then some stood up and gave this false testimony against him: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with human hands and in three days will build another, not made with hands.’” 59 Yet even then their testimony did not agree. 60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.
In a world where the gospel of Thomas, Origen, the Marcionite gospel - and the Gospel of John - are all ignored it would sound like (a) Jesus never said anything about destroying the temple and (b) whatever testimony the Jews came up was completely false. Yet it is curious that after his crucifixion that the Jews said:
Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, “So! You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, 30 come down from the cross and save yourself!”
So whether or not Jesus actually said these words it's an important part of the reason he died. It's not a passing bit of fluff. Whoever wrote the gospel of Mark is aware that at the core of the Jewish case against Jesus is his statement regarding him destroying the temple.

Now most of us accept that Mark wrote a gospel and then Matthew and then Luke and then John. But isn't it curious that those who read the 'complete' gospel read the material in a way that would suggest that the Jews had some ground for their concern that Jesus might indeed have acted like a terrorist:
But they took and brought Him before Pontius Pilate, who at that time was administering the province of Syria as governor, and demanded that He should be crucified, though they laid nothing else to His charge except that He said that He was the Son of God, the King of the Jews; also His own saying, Destroy this temple, which was forty-six years in building, and in three days I will raise it up again without hands,— signifying that His passion would shortly take place, and that He, having been put to death by the Jews, would rise again on the third day. For He Himself was the true temple of God. They inveighed against these expressions of His, as ill-omened and impious. And when Pilate had heard these things, and He said nothing in His own defense, he gave sentence that there appeared nothing deserving of condemnation in Him. But those most unjust accusers, together with the people whom they had stirred up, began to cry out, and with loud voices to demand His crucifixion. [Lactantius Divine Inst. 4.18]
Not sure what gospel is in Lactantius's possession where the Pilate is the governor of Syria but it likely comes from a variant gospel because Tertullian in the Apology makes the same blunder:
At his teaching, however, by which the teachers and leading men among the Jews were refuted, they were so angered, especially because a vast crowd was turning aside to him, that in the end they prosecuted him, and by the violence of |73 their partisanship forcibly obtained from Pontius Pilate, who at that time was governing Syria on behalf of the Romans, Jesus' surrender for crucifixion. He himself also had foretold that they would do so; a small thing, if the prophets had not also foretold it earlier. And further, on being crucified he displayed many signs peculiar to that death. For he released his spirit of his own accord with a word, anticipating the duty of the executioner. At the same moment daylight was withdrawn, though the sun was then marking the middle of his course. Those who did not know that this also had been prophesied17 with regard to Christ, thought that it was an eclipse; and yet you have that overshadowing of the sky recorded in your secret records.
The original source of the 'mistake' might come from Josephus. But Lactantius's business about the threat being brought up before Pilate is new. It likely comes from the Acts of Pilate as the Gospel of Nicodemus references:
THEN Pilate left Jesus in the hall, and went out to the Jews, and said, I find not any one fault in Jesus. The Jews say unto him, But he said, I can destroy the temple of God, and in three days build it up again. Pilate saith unto them, What sort of temple is that of which he speaketh? The Jews say unto him, That which Solomon was forty-six years in building, 4 he said he would destroy, and in three days build up.
My point in all of this is that it is hard to believe that the 'threat to destroy the temple was found in the main narrative of the gospel. John of course fits it in but in a way that makes it seem it was some misunderstood 'old reference' in a multi-year ministry. Jesus ministry was less than four months. The statement was likely only made when arrived in Jerusalem. It wasn't originally conceived as a misunderstanding and the way the Catholic texts complicate the Gospel of Thomas's blunt acknowledgement of his desire to destroy the house must be considered too.
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mlinssen
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Re: John 2:19 and the Denial that Jesus Said He wanted to Destroy the Temple

Post by mlinssen »

and the way the Catholic texts complicate the Gospel of Thomas's blunt acknowledgement of his desire to destroy the house must be considered too.
Do tell please - I'm curious now, what did I miss?
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MrMacSon
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Re: John 2:19 and the Denial that Jesus Said He wanted to Destroy the Temple

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mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:03 am Do tell please - I'm curious now, what did I miss?
It first started here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8715
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:00 am The Gospel of Thomas and almost certainly the Gospel of Marcion HAD Jesus announcing he would destroy the temple ...
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mlinssen
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Re: John 2:19 and the Denial that Jesus Said He wanted to Destroy the Temple

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:08 am
mlinssen wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:03 am Do tell please - I'm curious now, what did I miss?
It first started here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8715
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:00 am The Gospel of Thomas and almost certainly the Gospel of Marcion HAD Jesus announcing he would destroy the temple ...
Thanks Mac. I'm slightly worried reading such utter nonsense really, everything okay SA?
davidmartin
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Re: John 2:19 and the Denial that Jesus Said He wanted to Destroy the Temple

Post by davidmartin »

i think the Odes shed some light on this
"No man can pervert Your holy place, O my God; nor can he change it, and put it in another place.
Because he has no power over it; for Your sanctuary You designed before You made special places"

This is anti-temple because it's talking about a non-physical building, suggesting the physical temple isn't really legitimate
So the Odes are explaining why Jesus was accused of wanting to overthrow it, just like they also are anti-sacrifice
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