obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by neilgodfrey »

I am now well into Gershom Scholem's study of Sabbatai Sevi and have been led to think at this stage that the most useful exercise will be to outline the key factors best argued as being responsible for a surge in popular interest in such figures and then compare with the various models proposed for the rise of Christianity. Of course, part of this analysis will be to be clear about the place of myth vis a vis identifiable historical data.

One thing that has piqued my interest so far is that Sabbatai Sevi was not the kind of figure who, alone, could ever have inspired a widespread following. Without his "John the Baptist/Elijah" companion in Nathan of Gaza no-one but his immediate acquaintances would ever have heard of him.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:38 pm I am now well into Gershom Scholem's study of Sabbatai Sevi and have been led to think at this stage that the most useful exercise will be to outline the key factors best argued as being responsible for a surge in popular interest in such figures and then compare with the various models proposed for the rise of Christianity. Of course, part of this analysis will be to be clear about the place of myth vis a vis identifiable historical data.

One thing that has piqued my interest so far is that Sabbatai Sevi was not the kind of figure who, alone, could ever have inspired a widespread following. Without his "John the Baptist/Elijah" companion in Nathan of Gaza no-one but his immediate acquaintances would ever have heard of him.
Really intriguing. So possibly using this as a model, it could be used to discuss the necessary roles of others in the early Christian movement (of course, assuming historicity). Probably could see this being adopted in the new quest of the historical John the Baptist and such that is being initiated by Joel Marcus, and continued by McGrath and company.

Are you planning to do any blog posts on the "obscure people start religions" bit? If so, I can't wait.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Ken Olson wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:49 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:18 pm Edward Irving
Mary Baker Eddy

Andrew Criddle
Andrew Criddle??? I'd never have thought it ;)
The religion of Higher Criticism shall be found in every university and school soon! lol
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neilgodfrey
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by neilgodfrey »

Chris Hansen wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 3:47 pm Are you planning to do any blog posts on the "obscure people start religions" bit? If so, I can't wait.
Not until I've read a lot more. I don't expect anything before a year from now. Unless some other question waylays me along the way.
Giuseppe
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Giuseppe »

If the comparison with Sabbatai Sevi will serve only to make the point of the possibility of a historical Jesus, then I am not so interested.

Rather, I think that a more interesting question is the following: are found in the history cases of "political" mysticism?

I mean: cases where there are hallucinations, visions, revelations, etc, à la Revelation, but where it is evident:
  • The political opposition against someone;
  • The absence of a historical figure as the object of such mystical revelations, etc.
In other words, the question raised by me is: is Couchoud justified to give a mythicist reading of the Book of Revelation, given the fact that Couchoud concedes, differently from Richard Carrier, that Revelation preceded any gospel, was written in 70 CE and was anti-Roman and Pro-Zealot?

Or does any phenomenon where mysticism (=hallucinations) occurs justify mythicism only when said mysticism is totally de-politicized?

I think that the problem of Jesus's historicity is all there, at the end.
ABuddhist
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by ABuddhist »

If I may add some more data to this forum thread, Nichiren, the founder of Nichiren Buddhism, seems to have had a controversial genealogy. Quoting wikipedia (whence sources can be checked): "Nichiren was born in the village of Kominato (today part of the city of Kamogawa), Nagase District, Awa Province (within present-day Chiba Prefecture). Accounts of his lineage vary. Nichiren described himself as "the son of a Sendara (Skt: chandala, despised outcast), "a son born of the lowly people living on a rocky strand of the out-of-the-way sea," and "the son of a sea-diver." In contrast, Hōnen, Shinran, Dōgen, and Eisai, the other founders of [Japanese Buddhist] religious schools who predated Nichiren, were all born in the Kyoto region and came from noble or samurai backgrounds. Although his writings reflect a fierce pride of his lowly birth, followers after his death began to ascribe to him a more noble lineage, perhaps to attract more adherents.[50][51] Some have claimed his father was a rōnin,[52] a manorial functionary (shokan),[13]: 5  or a political refugee.[53][54][31]: 4 "
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