obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:28 pm
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:49 pm
Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:53 am
HOW THE RELIGION OF IC DEVELOPED SO RAPIDLY.
Alternative: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time. Given that Christianity developed out of Judaism, we can look at it, in my opinion, similarly to how various Christian denominations have evolved. Martin Luther, a random monk sitting in an abbey just stewing on problems with indulgences, managed to jumpstart an entire Reformation of the religion in his lifetime.

It seems rather natural and habitual that these events take place.
I have taken the above snippet from another thread because I want to focus on the distinctive theme raised here.

That "obscure people start ... religions all the time" is integral to a theory of religious origins set out by a leading anthropologist of religion Harvey Whitehouse. Whitehouse discusses two modes of religiosity, the doctrinal and the imagistic, and addresses the constant danger facing the former: that obscure members can rise up any time with their own revisionist doctrines and start a new religious body. In short, a religion founded upon doctrinal teachings is always going to be vulnerable to someone coming up with some sort of challenge to those teachings. Whitehouse notes the various techniques used by the would-be parent body to minimize this threat.

What I am interested in is a list of many names of such "obscure upstarts" in order to arrive at a sample that enables us to make serious comparisons with what we know of Christianity. To what extent will a close examination of these common anthropological breakaway events be consistent with the evidence we have for Christian origins? But to address that question I would like a list of sample candidates.

We have started with Martin Luther.

One quickly thinks of Joseph Smith.

Who else?

Added after original posting:

Maybe there are examples where "bodies" or "groups" break away to start anew -- not just individuals. This will open up, I expect, questions of myth-making to justify the break.
Apollonius of Tyana (not exactly a break-away but definitely started a movement), Paul the apostle (spurned and became the name we associate with a break away in early Christianity from Judaism), The Prophet Muhammad, Mani, David Koresh (of course that ended in disaster), Chaitanya, are all a few I would throw there.

I would add also one that no one probably would ever know about here. My dad's family were immigrants from Denmark and became involved in a new denomination that was an offshoot of the Free Methodist Church. Founded by Vivian Dake originally as a youth missionary arm, the Pentecost Bands were headed by him until he died. In the mid 1890s, however, he passed away and Thomas Hiram Nelson, a charismatic ex-Catholic, who had converted and been elected the new leader (despite him being an obscure immigrant from Canada), took command of the Bands and announced their separation from the Methodist church. They became heavily involved in their own brand of the Holiness movement, with much their own creed. As far as Christians go, they were almost early Christian universalists at first, at least for Protestants, as they allowed dual denominational memberships, but they had a set of core tenets. They had no "pastors" or "priests" but only "workers", and very early allowed a closer to equal status among women and men, along with also people of color, thus, they were actually fairly progressive. They were staunchly against the conception of money, very communal, none of their workers drew a salary, and specifically critiqued and attacked the "modern Church" for its opulence, preaching to the rich, and refusal to reach out and give safe spaces for ex-prisoners, orphans, immigrants, people of color, etc.

Functionally, they were their own very peculiar sect of Christianity. Unfortunately they died out around 60 years after their founding, eventually merging with the Wesleyan church.

My great great grandfather was a leader in the Pentecost Bands, and eventually became the second highest ranking member. Anyways, thought that would be an interesting one, since it is an entire separate offshoot of Christianity that was relatively recent, and had quite an impact on the FMC, but no one really knows about it. Founded by obscure immigrants.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

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Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:33 pm
Apollonius of Tyana (not exactly a break-away but definitely started a movement), Paul the apostle (spurned and became the name we associate with a break away in early Christianity from Judaism), The Prophet Muhammad, Mani, . . .
These are all figures whose histories and identities are no longer recoverable in any undisputed way.

Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:33 pm David Koresh (of course that ended in disaster) . . . .
David Koresh is a good example. He is part of the sabbattarian Church of God network from which the Armstrong cult emerged.


Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:33 pm I would add also one that no one probably would ever know about here. . . .
Interesting and noted, thanks.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:45 pm
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:33 pm
Apollonius of Tyana (not exactly a break-away but definitely started a movement), Paul the apostle (spurned and became the name we associate with a break away in early Christianity from Judaism), The Prophet Muhammad, Mani, . . .
These are all figures whose histories and identities are no longer recoverable in any undisputed way.
Ah didn't know we were limiting to just that. Sorry. I will see if I can come up with a few more that better fit those criteria.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by neilgodfrey »

Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:51 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:45 pm
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:33 pm
Apollonius of Tyana (not exactly a break-away but definitely started a movement), Paul the apostle (spurned and became the name we associate with a break away in early Christianity from Judaism), The Prophet Muhammad, Mani, . . .
These are all figures whose histories and identities are no longer recoverable in any undisputed way.
Ah didn't know we were limiting to just that. Sorry. I will see if I can come up with a few more that better fit those criteria.
Yes. I am interested in a historical/anthropological analysis. The Dave Koresh and Herbert Armstrong instances are particularly interesting because I think in both cases that's where we have a new sect emerging where the founder is mythologize (by himself and followers) as having a higher identity status than anyone belonging to the parent body.
Chrissy Hansen
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:02 pm
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:51 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:45 pm
Chris Hansen wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:33 pm
Apollonius of Tyana (not exactly a break-away but definitely started a movement), Paul the apostle (spurned and became the name we associate with a break away in early Christianity from Judaism), The Prophet Muhammad, Mani, . . .
These are all figures whose histories and identities are no longer recoverable in any undisputed way.
Ah didn't know we were limiting to just that. Sorry. I will see if I can come up with a few more that better fit those criteria.
Yes. I am interested in a historical/anthropological analysis. The Dave Koresh and Herbert Armstrong instances are particularly interesting because I think in both cases that's where we have a new sect emerging where the founder is mythologize (by himself and followers) as having a higher identity status than anyone belonging to the parent body.
Ryuho Okawa is a more recent and living example. Kinda doing this breakaway by merging bits and pieces of various religions, started the "Happy Science" movement after having basically just done economic business trading stuff. He is the reincarnation of their "god" essentially.

There is currently this guy called Lord Rayel who has started his own movement, proclaiming himself God, it is basically an offshoot of Christianity believing him the second coming of Christ.

Gerald Gardner, the founder of the modern Wicca movement, may also apply. He has been semi-mythologized, and came from just a middle-class background as a random amateur anthropologist (who were a dime a dozen in England in the early-mid 20th century). Not really a breakaway group though.
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DCHindley
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

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neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:52 pm
Charles Wilson wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:42 pm L. Ron Hubbard: Scientolology:
“You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.”
What did Ron Hubbard break away from?
Writing Science Fiction. Even the religion he developed is pure science fiction. Thetans, etc.

DCH
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MrMacSon
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

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neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:28 pm What I am interested in is a list of many names of such "obscure upstarts" in order to arrive at a sample that enables us to make serious comparisons with what we know of Christianity.
Paul and, if Marcion priority is true, Marcion
Charles Wilson
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by Charles Wilson »

One of a Myriad of Histories of Scientology:
https://religionfacts.com/scientology/history

"Hubbard learned and experienced much during his Asian travels, but he was left discouraged by what he observed:

"For all the wonders of these lands and all his respect for those whom he encountered, he still saw much that concerned him: Chinese beggars willing themselves to die above open graves in Beijing, children who were less than rags, widespread ignorance and despair. And in the end, he came to the inescapable conclusion that despite the wisdom of its ancient texts, the East did not have the answers to the miseries of the human condition. It remained evident in the degradation and sorrow of its people.

"To be very blunt, it was very obvious that I was dealing with and living in a culture which knew less about the mind than the lowest primitive tribe I had ever come in contact with. Knowing also that people in the East were not able to reach as deeply and predictably into the riddles of the mind as I had been led to expect, I knew I would have to do a lot of research..."

"In 1938, Hubbard discovered what he believed to be the common denominator of existence, which was: SURVIVE. In a philosophic work entitled "Excalibur," Hubbard wrote:

" 'I suddenly realized that survival was the pin on which you could hang the rest of this with adequate and ample proof. It’s a very simple problem. Idiotically simple! That’s why it never got solved. Nobody has ever looked at anything being that simple to do that much.' "

Of special interest to me is the following:

"In 1954, Scientologists, not Hubbard, founded the first Church of Scientology in Los Angeles. As Scientologists describe it, "L. Ron Hubbard founded the subject - early Scientologists founded the church."

As I've stated with Lenin, the "Second Generation" has to bend the Original Thesis to adapt to new possibilities. The result may even contradict the Original but this adaptation may be necessary for growth.

As an aside, I lived in Pinellas County. Fl., during the years when Scientology "took over" Clearwater. I drove Limo Vans from Tampa International Airport to Clearwater and I often drove Scientologists to the Headquarters on Fort Harrison. A lot of Germans and some Upper Level Functionaries. The Functionaries were quite ready to argue the truth of Hubbard's (Sci-Fi) findings.


It fits.

CW
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neilgodfrey
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:10 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:28 pm What I am interested in is a list of many names of such "obscure upstarts" in order to arrive at a sample that enables us to make serious comparisons with what we know of Christianity.
Paul and, if Marcion priority is true, Marcion
Unfortunately our evidence for both does not allow us to use them as controls. Too many gaps and uncertainties and debates dog us at every step of any attempt at reconstruction.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: obscure people start rapidly evolving religions all the time

Post by neilgodfrey »

Charles Wilson wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:17 pm

Of special interest to me is the following:

"In 1954, Scientologists, not Hubbard, founded the first Church of Scientology in Los Angeles. As Scientologists describe it, "L. Ron Hubbard founded the subject - early Scientologists founded the church."

As I've stated with Lenin, the "Second Generation" has to bend the Original Thesis to adapt to new possibilities. The result may even contradict the Original but this adaptation may be necessary for growth.
Thanks for this reminder. Yes. LRH is an excellent example of one who has been "increasingly deified" since his death. Good comparison material. One can quickly see the sorts of things LRH did to instigate this subsequent deification --- I'll add him into a pool of names to study and compare.
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