Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

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Giuseppe
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Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Giuseppe »

Is Theudas an example of seditious leader in Josephus ?

Or was he a pacifist, innocent victim of the Romans, who preached only the divine violence coming on the Romans?

Or are we simply not able to answer this question, given what Josephus says us about Theudas?

Thanks in advance for any question.
Germanicus_C
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Germanicus_C »

Slavonic War of Josephus: why is John the Baptist named 2.110 before Judas the Galilean 2.118?
Wasn't this John but Theudas? This would be consistent with Lukes's writing in acts.

Could it be that the Theudas' story in the Western War was in fact John's and the positive story about him (Ant. 18.5.2) has been interpolated?

That might fuel the hypothesis that target X, the death of Judas the Galilean, would have occurred in 19 CE, the time when Kaiphas was appointed high priest, as well as the year of Germanicus's death by betrayal of Calpurnius Piso? Double bottom?
Germanicus_C
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Germanicus_C »

Germanicus died at 33 years old after an administration of 3 years. ???
Germanicus_C
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Germanicus_C »

Germanicus died at 33 years old, after an administration of 3 years as governor of Syrian province.
John2
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by John2 »

I think he (like Jesus) was both. He's described as a magician and he and his followers do not appear to have been armed, and his "wild attempt" was to persuade them with his words and take them away from Judea, where I suppose they may have expected divine assistance to overthrow the Romans, like Jesus and his followers expected to overthrow the Romans with the assistance of the coming of "the Son of Man ... in his Father's glory with His holy angels" after Jesus' death (as per Mk. 8:38).


Ant. 20.5.1:

Now it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.
Last edited by John2 on Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Germanicus_C
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Germanicus_C »

Dear John2

Do you mean Juda(h/s) AKA Jesus(name not mentioned in Codici S&V...?) and Theudas AKA John?

Greetings,
Germanicus_C
Giuseppe
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Giuseppe »

John2 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:33 pm I think he (like Jesus) was both.
are not you conceding too much to Christian apologetics, if you deny that the historical Jesus was connected with the use of violence?

If Jesus existed, the accusation of "king of the Jews" implies connection with violence.
John2
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by John2 »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:01 pm
John2 wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:33 pm I think he (like Jesus) was both.
are not you conceding too much to Christian apologetics, if you deny that the historical Jesus was connected with the use of violence?

If Jesus existed, the accusation of "king of the Jews" implies connection with violence.

How is saying that Jesus was both things denying that he was connected with the use of violence? Claiming to be Daniel's "son of man" figure and the portrayal of such in Revelation clearly indicate that Jesus (or his ultimate goal) was seditious.
Giuseppe
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by Giuseppe »

A good example of a person who was seditious and pacifist is: Gandhi.

He uses pacifism to serve his seditious goals against the British empire.

You can't claim that Gandhi was connected with violence.

Hence, you can't compare Theudas to Gandhi.

My point is that, in definitive, the followers of Theudas had swords with them, when they reached their new "Joshua" near the Jordan river.
John2
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Re: Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

Post by John2 »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:32 am A good example of a person who was seditious and pacifist is: Gandhi.

He uses pacifism to serve his seditious goals against the British empire.

You can't claim that Gandhi was connected with violence.

Hence, you can't compare Theudas to Gandhi.

My point is that, in definitive, the followers of Theudas had swords with them, when they reached their new "Joshua" near the Jordan river.

What gives you the impression that the followers of Theudas were armed? Josephus says that Theudas had "persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them," and while I don't recall the Greek word for "effects" here, I asked Ben about it before and he said the word does not imply weapons, only personal belongings. And Theudas was taking them away from Judea.

And sedition is defined here as "overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order," and that sounds like Gandhi and Theudas and Jesus to me.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedition
Last edited by John2 on Wed Feb 16, 2022 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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