Question: Was Theudas seditious or pacifist?

[davidlau17]

Well, his disciples having swords appears to be at least part of it, since that's the context of his citation of Is. 53:12. I think Jesus just wanted (or is presented as wanting) to symbolically appear to be like violent Fourth Philosophers by appearing to be associated with "transgressors" for the sake of "fulfilling" Is. 53:12. His pacifistic approach seems to be based on the Suffering Servant figure and the "cut off" Messiah in Dan. 9:26, but claiming to also be Daniel's "son of man" figure negates all that to me (as per Dan. 7:14: "He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve him").

So Jesus wanted to accomplish the same thing that "transgressors" did (i.e., that "one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth"), but he had a particular way of making it happen, first by being pacifistic like the Suffering Servant and the cut off Messiah, then (after his death) by being seditious like the "son of man." And in the big picture, it all seems like Fourth Philosophic nonsense to me (just like Theudas' thing does).

I agree with you that if we were to read Luke 22:37 literally, Jesus appears to be telling his disciples to carry swords in order to fulfill Isaiah 53:12. Whether this is the best method of "fulfilling" the passage is questionable to say the least, but it does appear to be what Jesus is suggesting. The bigger question for me is whether Jesus truly did try to set up a series of self-fulfilling prophecies, or if the Gospel writers simply wrote everything as if it was in fulfillment of prophecy.

This might lead one to the mythicist conclusion that the gospel accounts are wholly fictional narratives crafted around the fulfillment of various scriptures. I disagree with this perspective because the "fulfillment" of prophecies in the NT tend to be ham-fisted and forced. Few, if any, of the OT citations provided in the gospels are actual predictions, and it often stretches the imagination to link the cited scripture to its NT counterpart. The gospel accounts look less like narratives expertly crafted around predictions from the OT, and more like a series of events in which various OT passages were inexpertly applied.

[John2]

I think it could be a mixture of Jesus having interpreted the OT in a particular way and his followers applying various OT verses to him after his death. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a good example of this. They apply OT passages retroactively and out of context to a figure (the Teacher of Righteousness) who had interpreted the OT in a particular way when he was alive.

[Giuseppe]

This might lead one to the mythicist conclusion that the gospel accounts are wholly fictional narratives crafted around the fulfillment of various scriptures. I disagree with this perspective because the "fulfillment" of prophecies in the NT tend to be ham-fisted and forced.

here is where Marcion supports the mythicist case. The prophecies in the NT tend to be ham-fisted and forced (especially so in Matthew and current Luke) because they are designed to confute Marcion.

[John2]

The prophecies in the NT tend to be ham-fisted and forced (especially so in Matthew and current Luke) because they are designed to confute Marcion.

Or maybe they just used OT verses like the Dead Sea Scrolls do for the Teacher of Righteousness (which have nothing to do with Marcion). For example, when an OT verse has the word "zaddik" (righteous one) or its cognates in it, it is applied to the Teacher of Righteousness. And the same method is used by Hegeisppus with respect to James in EH 2.23.15 (using the LXX).

And they cried out, saying, 'Oh! Oh! The just man is also in error.' And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah, 'Let us take away the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings.'

Perhaps there is a similar method to the madness in the NT (i.e., fixating on a particular word regardless of the context), since in Acts 7:52 Stephen says:

Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One.

Jesus is likened to the the Suffering Servant in Lk. 22:37 (citing Is. 53:12), and the Servant is called a zaddik in Is. 53:11 ("the Righteous One, My Servant"). So maybe this is one method to the madness in the NT (in addition to taking longer phrases out of context).

[davidlau17]

This might lead one to the mythicist conclusion that the gospel accounts are wholly fictional narratives crafted around the fulfillment of various scriptures. I disagree with this perspective because the "fulfillment" of prophecies in the NT tend to be ham-fisted and forced.

here is where Marcion supports the mythicist case. The prophecies in the NT tend to be ham-fisted and forced (especially so in Matthew and current Luke) because they are designed to confute Marcion.

This assumes Marcionite priority, and it doesn't explain why Marcion included a few OT prophecies in his Evangelion. In any case, even if we did assume most OT references are interpolations, I don't see how this would strengthen the case for mythicism.

[Giuseppe]

This assumes Marcionite priority, and it doesn't explain why Marcion included a few OT prophecies in his Evangelion. In any case, even if we did assume most OT references are interpolations, I don't see how this would strengthen the case for mythicism.

I mean: Mark--->Marcion--->Matthew--->John---->Luke-Acts
So the naive insistence on fulfilled prophecies, found especially in Matthew and Luke-Acts, has the reason in the anti-marcionite polemic, not in the need to persuade Jews (=possibly, Jews aware that Jesus was a failed messianist) that Jesus is the expected Messiah.

[schillingklaus]

Markan priority is once more the broad way to fallacy, and many scholars are bound thither.

The insistence in fulfilled prophecies is no less in Mark's than in any other. Anti-Marcionite polemics is contained in all writings of the New Testament wherever they identify the Father and YHWH.

Any canonical gospel is at the late end of a long evolution starting with the Euhemerization of a purely metaphysical saviour.