Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
perseusomega9
Posts: 1030
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 am

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by perseusomega9 »

Chris,

If you think Tactitus got some XC info from Pliny, would this be from an unattested correspondence between them? Book 10 was published posthumously afterall.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13658
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Giuseppe »

I should give up to Chris's idea that Tacitus was based on Pliny, since Karl Kautsky considers Pliny a total forgery:

We have already mentioned Josephus’ testimony as to Jesus as one such forgery. The next writer after Tacitus who mentions the Christians is the younger Pliny, who, as propraetor of Bithynia (probably 111 to 113), sent a letter about them to Trajan, which has come down to us in the collection of his letters (C. Plinii Caecilii Epistolarum libri decem, Book X, letter 97). In it he inquires what to do with the Christians of his province, of whom he hears nothing but good, but who are emptying the temples. This idea of the harmlessness of the Christians does not go well with the view of his friend Tacitus, who stresses their “hate for the whole human race.” It is equally striking that by Trajan’s time Christianity should already have been so widespread that it was able to empty the temples of Bithynia, “which were already all but deserted, their ceremonies long neglected, their sacrificial animals seldom finding a purchaser.” One should expect that facts like these would invite general attention (as if shall we say only Social Democratic votes were cast in Berlin). People in general would be excited. Pliny however first learns of the existence of the Christians through a denouncement. These and other considerations suggest that this letter is a Christian forgery. Already in 1788 Semler assumed that the whole letter of Pliny was invented by a later Christian to glorify Christianity. On the other hand Bruno Bauer thinks the letter is Pliny’s, but originally did not sound very complimentary to the Christians and was suitably “edited” later by a Christian copyist.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsk ... h06.htm#s3

Hence, Tacitus's and Pliny's views about the Christians are so mutually exclusive that only one of them is probably a forgery but not the other: hence I save Tacitus and I reject Pliny.
User avatar
Sinouhe
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Sinouhe »

It is equally striking that by Trajan’s time Christianity should already have been so widespread that it was able to empty the temples of Bithynia,
Polydor Hochart - Sur la persecution des chrétiens par Neron
Moreover this assertion of Pliny was announced contrary to the truth, because the gospel could not be carried until very late in Bithynia and in the Pont. In fact, two centuries later, only a tiny number of christians are recalled . Based on the testimonies of Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Basil who were from the region, Tillemont says:
It was the capital or one of the main cities of the province, when Saint Gregory was made bishop and very populated as well than all the surrounding country. But all the inhabitants of the city and the surrounding area were in the darkness of paganism. We only say 17 Christians ”. (Ecclesiastical memoir, t. IV, Saint Gregory Thaum., VI.)
Chrissy Hansen
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:46 pm

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

perseusomega9 wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:36 am Chris,

If you think Tactitus got some XC info from Pliny, would this be from an unattested correspondence between them? Book 10 was published posthumously afterall.
Probably, yes. I also think that Pliny probably published his letters himself in groups, hence leading to the confusion about how many books there were, because he was just publishing them in groups over time.
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:59 am
Chris Hansen wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 1:03 amPliny would have a relevant piece of information that further aids Tacitus' critical eye toward the reign of Nero, whom he consistently seeks to paint as a tyrant. So he included it to show more of his corrupt personality, along with also putting down a Judean "superstition" which he is rather fond of admonishing anyways (Histories 5).
this is intereting, thanks. So, as the Tacitus's logic would go, insofar Nero is the emperor, then the anti-imperial propaganda of the Christians is partially justified even by Tacitus. My point is that Tacitus would have never mentioned the Christians, if the latter were not an example of anti-imperial propagandists who could be used, for that matter, against Nero.
Agreed. I think they are only there because they help Tacitus decry Nero as a tyrant.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2806
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by andrewcriddle »

This is specifically on the possibility of Pliny Book X being in entirety a forgery.
Old Post https://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sh ... 720&page=3
I don't think it would have been possible to do a convincing forgery of Pliny book X without considerable knowledge of the situation in Bithynia around the time Pliny served there.

In practice this requires access to the orations of Dio Chrysostom which were little known in the West before the 1551 printed edition. (Allegedly there was a 1476 printed edition but no copy of it survives and modern scholars doubt if it ever existed.)
(The first complete publication of Pliny Book X is c 1508)

Andrew Criddle
Chrissy Hansen
Posts: 532
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:46 pm

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Chrissy Hansen »

Yeah I agree with you on that for sure.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13658
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Giuseppe »

Jean Magne seems to argue that Pliny is genuine and that the Judaizers applied to god the hymns originally addressed to Jesus. An argument supporting authenticity in Pliny is that the Judaizers were embarrassed by the presence of hymns addressed to Christ.

https://www.pdcnet.org/agstm/content/ag ... _0085_0095
User avatar
Sinouhe
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Sinouhe »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:39 am Jean Magne seems to argue that Pliny is genuine and that the Judaizers applied to god the hymns originally addressed to Jesus. An argument supporting authenticity in Pliny is that the Judaizers were embarrassed by the presence of hymns addressed to Christ.

https://www.pdcnet.org/agstm/content/ag ... _0085_0095
Those hymns Pliny refer can be some psalms attributed later by christians to JC. Like Psalm 22 or 69. It doesn’t prove anything.
User avatar
spin
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:44 pm
Location: Nowhere

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by spin »

Chris Hansen wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:52 amI just find it the most parsimonious answer to the issue, and explains a lot of the problems with the text, including the Chrestian/Christ interplay (common mistake due to phonology),...
There are two possible explanations for the appearance of the corrected Christianos/Chrestianos in the Beneventan copy that contains Ann.15.44 (Medicee II):

1. Chrestianos was in the source text and the copyist decided to "correct the error".

2. Christianos was in the source text, but a French copyist through fatigue replaced it with Chrestianos, which was later corrected to the source.

I can't see a way to choose between these two options. The text was copied in the era before the /s/ was elided in French, yet the /i/ > /e/ didn't happen with Christus.
User avatar
Sinouhe
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Re: Tacitus an Interpolation: Detering Argument

Post by Sinouhe »

spin wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:09 am
Chris Hansen wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:52 amI just find it the most parsimonious answer to the issue, and explains a lot of the problems with the text, including the Chrestian/Christ interplay (common mistake due to phonology),...
There are two possible explanations for the appearance of the corrected Christianos/Chrestianos in the Beneventan copy that contains Ann.15.44 (Medicee II):

1. Chrestianos was in the source text and the copyist decided to "correct the error".

2. Christianos was in the source text, but a French copyist through fatigue replaced it with Chrestianos, which was later corrected to the source.

I can't see a way to choose between these two options. The text was copied in the era before the /s/ was elided in French, yet the /i/ > /e/ didn't happen with Christus.
Lane states that this is supported by the spelling of Christians in Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and in 1 Peter 4:16 where the uncial codex Sinaiticus reads Chrestianos.[34]

(William L. Lane in Judaism and Christianity in First-Century Rome edited by Karl Paul Donfried and Peter Richardson (1998) ISBN 0802842658 pp. 204-206)

it may be a wish of the original forger to give an antique color to his text.
Post Reply