Salomon Reinach has argued that Claudius, in his epistle to Hewish Alexandrians, refers to a pestilence (nosos) who has infected the entire universe (oikoumene). It is evidence of the rebel Jewish messianism, hence the "Egyptian" of Josephus was the author of the riots in Alexandria and then in Rome, under the name of "Chrestus".
He posed as Joshua redivivus, hence he was the Simon Magus of the Christian tradition, since he was easily confused with one who posed "as the Son in Judea" and he was placed in Rome by Irenaeus.
Therefore, if Carrier is correct about the Chrestiani of Annals 15:44 being really the riotous followers of Chrestus (=the "Egyptian"), then so Dandy-Collins is correct about the Chrestiani being another name for the "Egyptians".
Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
Re: Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
Suivant M. Eisler, cette agitation était l'œuvre de l'«Égyptien» dont parle Josèphe sans le nommer, qui s'était réfugié à Rome et se disait Jésus ressuscité, comme il s'était dit le nouveau Josué en Palestine: c'était Simon de Gitta, Samaritain né à Alexandrie, que nous appelons Simon le Mage, dont on montrait plus tard (par erreur) la statue â Rome dans un quartier juif. Ainsi s'expliquerait le mot de Suétone [Claud., 25, 4) sur les troubles incessants dûs à l'impulsion d'un Messie (Christo impulsore), qui motivèrent l'expulsion de Juifs turbulents en 49, et aussi l'erreur de St. Irénée (Av. haer., II, 22) qui fait mourir Jésus sous Claude. C'est à tort qu'on accuse Josèphe d'avoir omis ces évènements; il en avait parlé, au témoignage d'Orose (éd. de Vienne, p. 45), mais dans un passage que la censure supprima.
https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/rjuiv_04 ... 4_5630.pdf
(my bold)
This would explain the silence of the proto-catholics on the victims of Nero during the Fire of Rome: they were the followers of the Magus.
Re: Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
Why would this passage have been censored?et aussi l'erreur de St. Irénée (Av. haer., II, 22) qui fait mourir Jésus sous Claude.
Do you have the text reference in Orose?
Re: Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
So wiki:
The 5th-century Christian writer Paulus Orosius makes a possible reference to the event, citing two sources:
[47]
The first source used by Orosius comes from a non-extant quote from Josephus
Josephus reports, 'In his ninth year the Jews were expelled by Claudius from the city.' But Suetonius, who speaks as follows, influences me more: 'Claudius expelled from Rome the Jews constantly rioting at the instigation of Christ [Christo, or rather xpo].' As far as whether he had commanded that the Jews rioting against Christ [Christum] be restrained and checked or also had wanted the Christians, as persons of a cognate religion, to be expelled, it is not at all to be discerned.
[47]
The first source used by Orosius comes from a non-extant quote from Josephus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius% ... _from_Rome
Re: Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
So, if Roger Parvus, when he was mythicist, had been right about Simon Magus == "Jesus", then he would have indirectly confirmed the Lena Einhorn's thesis (historical Jesus == the "Egyptian" false prophet), given what both Reinach and Eisler argued independently about the 'Egyptian' (i.e., that he was probably Simon Magus).
Re: Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
I don't see Chrestians that early having anything to do with Judaism, let alone Messianism. Around 200 CE perhaps - it is still unclear when exactly the hijack took place but I'm hoping that some from the Patristics corner will shed light on thatGiuseppe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:02 pm Salomon Reinach has argued that Claudius, in his epistle to Hewish Alexandrians, refers to a pestilence (nosos) who has infected the entire universe (oikoumene). It is evidence of the rebel Jewish messianism, hence the "Egyptian" of Josephus was the author of the riots in Alexandria and then in Rome, under the name of "Chrestus".
Re: Chrestus == "the Egyptian" and Chrestiani == "Egyptians"
We often take this and the other passage of Suetonius at face-value but thinking of it as XPO, if indeed that is what it is, adds another dimensionGiuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:07 am
So wiki:
The 5th-century Christian writer Paulus Orosius makes a possible reference to the event, citing two sources:
... Suetonius speaks as follows ... 'Claudius expelled from Rome the Jews constantly rioting at the instigation of Christ [Christo, or rather xpo].'
And -
- is noteworthy tooGiuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:07 am
The first source used by Orosius comes from a non-extant quote from Josephus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudius% ... _from_Rome
Josephus reports, 'In his ninth year the Jews were expelled by Claudius from the city.'
eta
Suetonius Tiberius XXXVI /36 and Josephus Antiquities. xviii.3.5 have Tiberius expelling Jews from Rome