Was Chrestus Jesus?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by MrMacSon »

John2 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:16 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:43 pm
  • Claudius 25 is about Jews in Rome. It's not clear who or even what Chrestus is/was, or if that entity was ever in Rome
But as I said in the OP, "since Jesus wasn't in Jerusalem or even alive at the time of this disturbance [in Jerusalem in Acts], his presence would not have been necessary for Christians to cause a similar disturbance in Rome.

Sure, but Claudius 25 specifies

"... Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus ..."

"at the instigation of Chrestus" suggests Chrestus was instigating in the present tense
John2
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by John2 »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:41 pm
John2 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:16 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:43 pm
  • Claudius 25 is about Jews in Rome. It's not clear who or even what Chrestus is/was, or if that entity was ever in Rome
But as I said in the OP, "since Jesus wasn't in Jerusalem or even alive at the time of this disturbance [in Jerusalem in Acts], his presence would not have been necessary for Christians to cause a similar disturbance in Rome.

Sure, but Claudius 25 specifies

"... Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus ..."

"at the instigation of Chrestus" suggests Chrestus was instigating in the present tense


It seems similar to me to what Hegesippus says about people being led astray by Jesus after his death in EH 2.23.10-12.

10. ...there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, 'We entreat you, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat you to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in you. For we bear you witness, as do all the people, that you are just, and do not respect persons.

11. Therefore, persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in you. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position you may be clearly seen, and that your words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, have come together on account of the Passover.'

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: 'You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.'
John2
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by John2 »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:27 pm fwiw, a note in relation to 'Chrestos' in Suetonius' Claudius 25 includes


" ... Acts xviii. 2, mentions the expulsion of the Jews from Rome by the emperor Claudius: Dio, however, says that he did not expel them, but only forbad their religious assemblies ..."

1. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... 3D25#note5
2. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6400/64 ... nknote-528


Acts 18.2 (as in John2's OP)

Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome ...



Well, Suetonius and Acts are much earlier than Dio, so take your pick.
davidlau17
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by davidlau17 »

John2 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:07 pm To me this is similar to the account of the disturbance in Jerusalem in Acts 21, which calls followers of Jesus Jews, when it had previously called them Christians (or Chrestians). If Acts calls Jesus' followers Jews and Christians (or Chrestians), why is it odd if Suetonius does it?
This is a pretty good point, but I do think there is some distinction to be made here. Acts shows a general hostility towards Judaism. It often uses the term Jews to refer to the Christian enemies of Paul who would prefer to keep Jewish rites and traditions. I interpret it as the author's method of differentiating those he considers "Judaizers" from those he considers "true Christians". The quote by James from Acts 21 would be an exception to this of course... though from Paul's perspective, James too would likely be considered a Judaizer/Jew.

To a Roman historian like Suetonius, such distinctions between Palestinian Jewish-Christians, Hellenized Jewish-Christian, or Gentile-Christians wouldn't be very relevant or necessary. One would imagine he would only use one term - and if he knew of the term Christian, it seems likely he would use that one.

On the other hand, the Claudius 25 quote could be read to mean that all Jews were banished from Rome, and to a Roman pagan at the time, Christianity was just considered a sect of Judaism (i.e. how the notes posted by MrMacSon interpret the situation). If it's the case that Suetonius considered Christianity to be a branch of Judaism, and all Jews were banished from Rome, then it would make sense that he would include them under the umbrella term of Jews.
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by Giuseppe »

davidlau17 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:56 pm it would make sense that he would include them under the umbrella term of Jews.
Suetonius calls the Christiani a "new" superstitio so he introduces a distinction between Jews and Christiani.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by MrMacSon »

Giuseppe wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:09 pm
davidlau17 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:56 pm it would make sense that he would include them under the umbrella term of Jews.
Suetonius calls the Christiani a "new" superstitio so he introduces a distinction between Jews and Christiani.
Suetonius also calls Egyptian and Jewish rites a superstition
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:29 pm
a Suetonius, 'Claudius Tiberius Nero Caesar,' aka Tiberius XXXVI [in turn, in Twelve Caesars]

XXXVI. He suppressed all foreign religions, and the Egyptian1 and Jewish rites, obliging those who practised that kind of superstition, to burn their vestments, and all their sacred utensils. He distributed the Jewish youths, under the pretence of military service, among the provinces noted for an unhealthy climate; and dismissed from the city all the rest of that nation as well as those who were proselytes to 'that religion' [similia sectantes], under pain of slavery for life, unless they complied. He also expelled the astrologers; but upon their suing for pardon, and promising to renounce their profession, he revoked his decree.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... apter%3D36


I only just realised that first note refers to Josephus talking about crucified priests in the temple of Isis -

1 "Tiberius pulled down the temple of Isis, caused her image to be thrown into the Tiber, and crucified her priests."- Joseph. Ant. Jud. 18.3,4*

* not, it seems, xviii, 4 as the note says
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Was Chrestus Jesus?

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:29 pm
davidlau17 wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:01 pm It seems a bit odd to me that Suetonius would use the name "Chresto" to refer to Christ (and simply calls followers of this character Jews) when he later uses the term "Christiani" to refer to Christians. This might indicate that the latter is an interpolation.
That's a good point. and, in another thread, Giuseppe has raised the prospect that what we refer to as "Chresto" was XPO. So, it'd be interesting to see the extant source manuscript for both terms ie. XPO and "Christiani"
Is XPO an example of nomina sacrum? Were pagan sources updated with nomina sacra when being copied down the centuries by Christians? That would be interesting.
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billd89
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Chrestiani, a Judeo-Egyptian sect ?

Post by billd89 »

Jews fighting "Jews": Jewish and (Judeo-?)Egyptian cults. I sense antinomian (Egyptian) Judaism lies at the core of this problem, not the later Pauline Jesus cult.

What gods did the (syncretistic Judaic) Chrestiani worship in Rome c.15 AD: Agathodaimon, Isis-Thermouthis or Isis-Renenutet perhaps?

Serpent cults. It's a HUGE motif in the Torah: Jews worshipping the Serpent. Later, Jesus was sometimes identified w/ the Serpent. So we admit it's problematic in Judaism for at least 400 years? And there's a TON of archaelogical evidence - papyri to sculpture to coinage - proving the Serpent Cult(s) dominated Alexandria, a 'Jewish' city, for about 600 years overlapping this period. We also cannot ignore Ophidion, Naas, Ialdabaoth, etc. these Serpent deities who appear in 'Judaism-derived' Gnosticism.

It looks like a snake problem.

The Chrestiani were obviously a Jewish-Pagan hybrid cult or movement (here: explicitly conflated w/ "Isis" & "Egyptians"), but we need to know more specifically which gods they worshipped.
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Re: Chrestiani, a Judeo-Egyptian sect ?

Post by mlinssen »

billd89 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:59 am Jews fighting "Jews": Jewish and (Judeo-?)Egyptian cults. I sense antinomian (Egyptian) Judaism lies at the core of this problem, not the later Pauline Jesus cult.

What gods did the (syncretistic Judaic) Chrestiani worship in Rome c.15 AD: Agathodaimon, Isis-Thermouthis or Isis-Renenutet perhaps?

Serpent cults. It's a HUGE motif in the Torah: Jews worshipping the Serpent. Later, Jesus was sometimes identified w/ the Serpent. So we admit it's problematic in Judaism for at least 400 years? And there's a TON of archaelogical evidence - papyri to sculpture to coinage - proving the Serpent Cult(s) dominated Alexandria, a 'Jewish' city, for about 600 years overlapping this period. We also cannot ignore Ophidion, Naas, Ialdabaoth, etc. these Serpent deities who appear in 'Judaism-derived' Gnosticism.

It looks like a snake problem.

The Chrestiani were obviously a Jewish-Pagan hybrid cult or movement (here: explicitly conflated w/ "Isis" & "Egyptians"), but we need to know more specifically which gods they worshipped.
It's unclear where you get you obviousness. Why does everything need to be Jewish?
Can't Chrestians simply have worshiped something xrestos?
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billd89
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Re: Chrestiani, a Judeo-Egyptian sect ?

Post by billd89 »

mlinssen wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:30 amIt's unclear where you get you obviousness. Why does everything need to be Jewish?
Can't Chrestians simply have worshiped something xrestos?
They didn't though.

It was a complex Jewish problem (heterodoxical Judaism), Jewish unrest related to Egyptian/Isis cults. That's what the ancient source says. That's obvious!

The astrologers, furthermore, were probably 'Chaldeans' - Jews who venerated the Celestial Great Serpent. There's a TON of information on that (related) side issue in Mastrocinque [2005], posted previously.

a Suetonius, 'Claudius Tiberius Nero Caesar,' aka Tiberius XXXVI [in turn, in Twelve Caesars]

XXXVI. He suppressed all foreign religions, and the Egyptian1 and Jewish rites, obliging those who practised that kind of superstition, to burn their vestments, and all their sacred utensils. He distributed the Jewish youths, under the pretence of military service, among the provinces noted for an unhealthy climate; and dismissed from the city all the rest of that nation as well as those who were proselytes to 'that religion' [similia sectantes], under pain of slavery for life, unless they complied. He also expelled the astrologers; but upon their suing for pardon, and promising to renounce their profession, he revoked his decree.

1 Tiberius pulled down the temple of Isis, caused her image to be thrown into the Tiber, and crucified her priests."- Joseph. Ant. Jud. 18.3,4*

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... apter%3D36

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