Sure, but Claudius 25 specifies
"at the instigation of Chrestus" suggests Chrestus was instigating in the present tense
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:41 pm
Sure, but Claudius 25 specifies
"... Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus ..."
"at the instigation of Chrestus" suggests Chrestus was instigating in the present tense
10. ...there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, 'We entreat you, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat you to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in you. For we bear you witness, as do all the people, that you are just, and do not respect persons.
11. Therefore, persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in you. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position you may be clearly seen, and that your words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, have come together on account of the Passover.'
12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: 'You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.'
MrMacSon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:27 pm fwiw, a note in relation to 'Chrestos' in Suetonius' Claudius 25 includes
" ... Acts xviii. 2, mentions the expulsion of the Jews from Rome by the emperor Claudius: Dio, however, says that he did not expel them, but only forbad their religious assemblies ..."
1. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... 3D25#note5
2. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6400/64 ... nknote-528
Acts 18.2 (as in John2's OP)
Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome ...
This is a pretty good point, but I do think there is some distinction to be made here. Acts shows a general hostility towards Judaism. It often uses the term Jews to refer to the Christian enemies of Paul who would prefer to keep Jewish rites and traditions. I interpret it as the author's method of differentiating those he considers "Judaizers" from those he considers "true Christians". The quote by James from Acts 21 would be an exception to this of course... though from Paul's perspective, James too would likely be considered a Judaizer/Jew.John2 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:07 pm To me this is similar to the account of the disturbance in Jerusalem in Acts 21, which calls followers of Jesus Jews, when it had previously called them Christians (or Chrestians). If Acts calls Jesus' followers Jews and Christians (or Chrestians), why is it odd if Suetonius does it?
Suetonius calls the Christiani a "new" superstitio so he introduces a distinction between Jews and Christiani.davidlau17 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:56 pm it would make sense that he would include them under the umbrella term of Jews.
Suetonius also calls Egyptian and Jewish rites a superstitionGiuseppe wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:09 pmSuetonius calls the Christiani a "new" superstitio so he introduces a distinction between Jews and Christiani.davidlau17 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:56 pm it would make sense that he would include them under the umbrella term of Jews.
I only just realised that first note refers to Josephus talking about crucified priests in the temple of Isis -MrMacSon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:29 pm
a Suetonius, 'Claudius Tiberius Nero Caesar,' aka Tiberius XXXVI [in turn, in Twelve Caesars]
XXXVI. He suppressed all foreign religions, and the Egyptian1 and Jewish rites, obliging those who practised that kind of superstition, to burn their vestments, and all their sacred utensils. He distributed the Jewish youths, under the pretence of military service, among the provinces noted for an unhealthy climate; and dismissed from the city all the rest of that nation as well as those who were proselytes to 'that religion' [similia sectantes], under pain of slavery for life, unless they complied. He also expelled the astrologers; but upon their suing for pardon, and promising to renounce their profession, he revoked his decree.
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... apter%3D36
Is XPO an example of nomina sacrum? Were pagan sources updated with nomina sacra when being copied down the centuries by Christians? That would be interesting.MrMacSon wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:29 pmThat's a good point. and, in another thread, Giuseppe has raised the prospect that what we refer to as "Chresto" was XPO. So, it'd be interesting to see the extant source manuscript for both terms ie. XPO and "Christiani"davidlau17 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:01 pm It seems a bit odd to me that Suetonius would use the name "Chresto" to refer to Christ (and simply calls followers of this character Jews) when he later uses the term "Christiani" to refer to Christians. This might indicate that the latter is an interpolation.
It's unclear where you get you obviousness. Why does everything need to be Jewish?billd89 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:59 am Jews fighting "Jews": Jewish and (Judeo-?)Egyptian cults. I sense antinomian (Egyptian) Judaism lies at the core of this problem, not the later Pauline Jesus cult.
What gods did the (syncretistic Judaic) Chrestiani worship in Rome c.15 AD: Agathodaimon, Isis-Thermouthis or Isis-Renenutet perhaps?
Serpent cults. It's a HUGE motif in the Torah: Jews worshipping the Serpent. Later, Jesus was sometimes identified w/ the Serpent. So we admit it's problematic in Judaism for at least 400 years? And there's a TON of archaelogical evidence - papyri to sculpture to coinage - proving the Serpent Cult(s) dominated Alexandria, a 'Jewish' city, for about 600 years overlapping this period. We also cannot ignore Ophidion, Naas, Ialdabaoth, etc. these Serpent deities who appear in 'Judaism-derived' Gnosticism.
It looks like a snake problem.
The Chrestiani were obviously a Jewish-Pagan hybrid cult or movement (here: explicitly conflated w/ "Isis" & "Egyptians"), but we need to know more specifically which gods they worshipped.
They didn't though.