The Real Testimonium

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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The Real Testimonium

Post by Peter Kirby »

Everybody gets to have a crack at a crackpot theory, right? Well, here's mine. (Probably has been ventured before. I don't know.)

Chrestus was a person who was active in Rome under Tiberius, who was "collecting" money to go to Jerusalem, which actually went to his followers (the "poor" in Jerusalem). He was aided in this by his closest disciples (Peter, James, and John). He was killed in Rome and got all the Jews expelled under the emperor Tiberius. His story was rewritten in the Gospels, in a myth of his innocence and willing suffering on the cross, influenced by the preaching of Paul regarding him.

We have his real story in Josephus (Antiquities 18.3.5), with all the names withheld. Perhaps Josephus himself left them anonymous. We have another reference to an expulsion of the Jews under Claudius at the instigation of Chrestus, in Suetonius. If these were the same event, then Suetonius gives us the name of the character in Josephus: i.e., Chrestus. Given that Dio Cassius avers that the Jews were not expelled under Claudius (60.6.6-7 - "did not drive them out"), saying that the action of Claudius was limited to restricting their meetings in Rome, there may have been only one expulsion under Tiberius, not two under each emperor. If there were only one expulsion under Tiberius, it seems probable that Suetonius has mistakenly transposed Chrestus to a later date. Accordingly, then, it seems probable that the Chrestus of Suetonius is the same character described by Josephus, and Suetonius split across two emperors (Tiberius and Claudius) what was an event under Tiberius, influenced by the knowledge (as per Dio Cassius) that something similar happened with the Jews in Rome under Claudius.

Most Christian descriptions of where Jesus is active on Earth are influenced by the Gospels, but there is one reference (Revelation 11:8) placing his death in Rome, if "their lord" refers to Christ (as is a natural reading) and the "great city" (as it likely does) refers to Rome.
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:15 pm Suetonius Tiberius XXXVI /36 and Josephus Antiquities. xviii. 5 have Tiberius expelling Jews from Rome
Antiquities 18.3.5 is sandwiched between the stories about Pilate and another story of impropriety in Rome.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/ant-18.html
1. [A.D. 27.] But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem: to take their winter quarters there; in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Cesar’s effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city: whereas our law forbids us the very making of images. ...

2. [A.D. 28.] But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem; and did it with the sacred money: and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews (7) were not pleased with what had been done about this water: and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamour against him; and insisted that he should leave off that design. ...

4. [A.D. 33.] About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder: and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis; and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina: one who on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation. She was also very rich. And although she were of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age; wherein women are the most gay; yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus: one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman: who was a man very high in the equestrian order. ...

5. There was a man who was a Jew; but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same: but in all respects a wicked man. He then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses. He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity; and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem. And when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves: on which account it was that they at first required it of her. Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it; ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome. At which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia: but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers: on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.

1. [An. 36.] But the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence: and who contrived every thing so, that the multitude might be please. So he bid them to get together upon mount Gerizzim: which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains: and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would shew them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place; because Moses put them there. (9) So they came thither armed; and thought the discourse of the man probable. And as they abode at a certain village, which was called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them, and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together. But Pilate prevented their going up, by seizing upon the roads, with a great band of horsemen, and footmen: who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village: and when it came to an action, some of them they slew; and others of them they put to flight; and took a great many alive. The principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.

2. But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an ambassy to Vitellius; a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria; and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed. For that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans; but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea; and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the Emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome: and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius; which he durst not contradict. But before he could get to Rome, Tiberius was dead. [A.D. 37, Mar. 16.]
There are several interesting parallels between the "man who was a Jew" and the NT figure (Chrestus / Christ):

(1) "an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws" (Mark 14:58, Mark 15:3, John 19:7)
(2) "by the fear he was under of punishment for the same" (Mark 3:6 and the opposite of Mark 14:49 where Jesus submits)
(3) "living at Rome" (Revelation 11:8, Suetonius' Claudius 25, Acts 18:2)
(4) "professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses" (Mark 7:10, Mark 10:3, Mark 12:19, John 5:46, 1 Cor 7:10)
(5) "in all respects a wicked man" (Mark 2:16, Mark 2:24, Mark 3:22, Mark 7:5, Luke 7:34, John 10:20, John 10:33)
(6) "procured also three other men" (Mark 1:16-20, Mark 5:37, Mark 9:2, Mark 14:33, Gal 2:9)
(7) "to send purple and gold ... to ... Jerusalem ... spent the money themselves" (1 Cor 16:3, 2 Cor 8:10, 2 Cor 9:2, Gal 2:10, Rom 15:26)

Naturally, Josephus gives a tendentious account. Probably this "wicked man" did some nice things and had some nice teachings. But Josephus' description does align with the way that the Gospels describe how his Jewish opponents viewed Jesus while he was active. It also agrees much more closely with the later traditions regarding Jesus, in its negativity, found in the Talmud.

Galatians 2:9-10 specifically connects the three "pillars" (Peter, James, and John) with the request for a collection to aid Jerusalem, forming a tight connection with the story here in Josephus of three men who are recruited to make a collection for Jerusalem, under the pretense of it being for the Temple.

The fact that the woman was "one that had embraced the Jewish religion" also forms a connection with the actions of the apostles in the New Testament, which under Tiberius would have appeared as if they were a movement that were drawing non-Jews into the Jewish religion. Suetonius' reference to an expulsion under Tiberius, likewise, specifically makes mentions of proselytes being expelled from Rome, as follows: "dismissed from the city all the rest of that nation as well as those who were proselytes to that religion" (Tiberius 36).

It's not completely clear if the charges against these men are accurate. It could be that they were accused because they were not paying the temple tax and because they were collecting for the poor in Jerusalem, causing other Jews to accuse Chrestus and the pillars of the crime of misleading a woman under fraudulent pretenses. The woman could have known it wasn't going to the temple, but her husband Saturninus and others in the community could have disapproved of her use of the money on these men and have drummed up the accusation. This group of men could have shared with other Jews (such as the Essenes) a distrust of the Temple worship and its priesthood.

This is no anodyne "about this time there was a" credal Christ. It has a shot of being the real Testimonium. Truly, this could be the account of Chrestus we've all been overlooking. Granted, I have only sketched it out just now, and there may be difficulties I haven't uncovered. But of all the crazy theories that I've seen offered of "finding Jesus" (or Chrestus) in different passages of Josephus, this is the only one that seems like it jumps off the page as being potentially related to Christianity, has a significant amount of detail that meaningfully lines up with the New Testament description, and explains some real conundrums elsewhere (especially the references in Revelation 11:8 and Claudius 25), which otherwise are swept under the rug as anomalies.
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by Giuseppe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:24 pm explains some real conundrums elsewhere (especially the references in Revelation 11:8 and Claudius 25), which otherwise are swept under the rug as anomalies.
Russell Gmirkin does a very good case about why the city in code of Rev 11;8 is Jerusalem and not Rome, despite of the fact that in the rest of the book 'Babylon' is always Rome.

in Rev. 11.8 in which the bodies of the two prophets lie unburied in the streets of the great city [Jerusalem], “which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt.” That characterization, a bit dissonant for the Apocalypse (the great city elsewhere is Babylon/Rome), sounds like it may have originated with Josephus, who described the occupation of the temple by the rebel forces as an abominable desecration that would lead to Jerusalem’s destruction (much like God rained destruction on wicked Sodom and Gomorrah and plagues on the wicked Egyptians). That is, John’s perception of conditions inside Jerusalem and its temple was flavored or colored by the Roman propaganda broadcast to the Jewish world through Josephus.

https://vridar.org/2021/10/31/the-war-o ... ent-192791
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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Peter Kirby wrote: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:24 pm
Everybody gets to have a crack at a crackpot theory, right? Well, here's mine. (Probably has been ventured before. I don't know.)

Chrestus was a person who was active in Rome under Tiberius, who was "collecting" money to go to Jerusalem, which actually went to his followers (the "poor" in Jerusalem). He was aided in this by his closest disciples (Peter, James, and John). He was killed in Rome and got all the Jews expelled under the emperor Tiberius. His story was rewritten in the Gospels, in a myth of his innocence and willing suffering on the cross, influenced by the preaching of Paul regarding him.

We have his real story in Josephus (Antiquities 18.3.5), with all the names withheld. Perhaps Josephus himself left them anonymous. We have another reference to an expulsion of the Jews under Claudius at the instigation of Chrestus, in Suetonius. If these were the same event, then Suetonius gives us the name of the character in Josephus: i.e., Chrestus. Given that Dio Cassius avers that the Jews were not expelled under Claudius (60.6.6-7 - "did not drive them out"), saying that the action of Claudius was limited to restricting their meetings in Rome, there may have been only one expulsion under Tiberius, not two under each emperor. If there were only one expulsion under Tiberius, it seems probable that Suetonius has mistakenly transposed Chrestus to a later date. Accordingly, then, it seems probable that the Chrestus of Suetonius is the same character described by Josephus, and Suetonius split across two emperors (Tiberius and Claudius) what was an event under Tiberius, influenced by the knowledge (as per Dio Cassius) that something similar happened with the Jews in Rome under Claudius.

Most Christian descriptions of where Jesus is active on Earth are influenced by the Gospels, but there is one reference (Revelation 11:8) placing his death in Rome, if "their lord" refers to Christ (as is a natural reading) and the "great city" (as it likely does) refers to Rome.


I think that's feasible.

There's also aspects of Antiquities 18.3.4 in which Josephus

a. starts out referring to

."... another sad calamity [which] put the Jews into disorder and certain shameful practices about the temple of Isis that was at Rome ...

b. Then there's a convoluted account of Paulina and Decius Mundus who had a freed woman whose name was Ide]. Mundus had fallen in love with Paulina, but it was, as far as I can work out, unrequited. Ide went to some of Isis’s priests and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile Paulina to Mundus. She ends up being beguiled by the God Anubis. It gets messy.

c. So

." Tiberius enquired into the matter thoroughly, by examining the priests about it: and ordered them to be crucified; as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman [Paulina]. He also demolished the temple of Isis ..."

We have a direct reference to crucifixion, which we don't have in the TF in 18.3.3 - we have there an essentially theological reference to Jesus "condemned to the cross". These discrepancies could be even more reason to condemn the TF, ie. 18.3.3, as pious fraud.

But if Ant. 18.3.4 is authentic, aspects of it, such as a temple destruction and reference to priests being crucified, albeit priests of Isis, might have attracted the attention of gospel authors (as would be the reference to the temple being demolished) and might even have motivated them.

There's also aspects of Suetonius' Tiberius 36 which might be attractive to Christian authors including reference to Egyptian and Jewish rites as 'that superstition'.
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:03 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:17 am Russell Gmirkin does a very good case about why the city in code of Rev 11;8 is Jerusalem and not Rome, despite of the fact that in the rest of the book 'Babylon' is always Rome.
A lot of people make that argument. It's a natural argument to make, since Jesus is believed to have died in Jerusalem. It just happens to be wrong, in the sense that is by far not the stronger argument on its merits.
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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5. There was a man who was a Jew; but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same: but in all respects a wicked man. He then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses. He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity; and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem. And when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves: on which account it was that they at first required it of her. Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it; ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome. At which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia: but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers: on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.
It looks like Paul :shock:

By the way Jesus, if he really existed, never preached against the law, since Paul never invokes Jesus's teachings when he preaches against the mitzvot.
Preaching against the law is a Pauline concept transposed retroactively into the life of Jesus by Mark.
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

Preaching against the law is a Pauline concept transposed retroactively into the life of Jesus by Mark.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but where does Jesus preach against the law in Mark (by which I mean -and suspect you may mean- the laws of Moses)?
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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Sinouhe wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:58 am
Preaching against the law
Let the text speak. Josephus says that he "professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses," not "preaching against the law."
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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John2 wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:22 pm
Preaching against the law is a Pauline concept transposed retroactively into the life of Jesus by Mark.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but where does Jesus preach against the law in Mark (by which I mean -and suspect you may mean- the laws of Moses)?
Preaching was the wrong term, but Mark is clearly drawing on Paul's epistles and contradicting the law as Paul would.
Mark 7:1-19 + Mark 2:23-28 are good examples where Mark takes up Paul's ideas.
In Mark 10:1-11, Jesus also goes against the law (Deuteronomy 24:1-4).
Let the text speak. Josephus says that he "professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses," not "preaching against the law."
It was my translation that misled me. In French we have "he pretended to teach them the law of Moses"
By the way, if he was accused of transgressing "their laws", then it's hard to imagine that he had orthodox teachings about this same law.
But the text doesn't say it so we don't know.
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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I think the great city in this context has to be Jerusalem, since it is where Jesus was crucified and it is the setting at the beginning of the chapter.
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

And Jerusalem is "figuratively called Sodom" in the OT (e.g., Is. 1:10-12), and Israel, at least (which of course includes Jerusalem) is likened to Egypt (e.g., Amos 4:10-11).

Hear the word of the Lord, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the instruction of our God, you people of Gomorrah! “What good to Me is your multitude of sacrifices?” says the Lord. “I am full from the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; I take no delight in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.When you come to appear before Me, who has required this of you—this trampling of My courts?
I sent plagues among you like those of Egypt; I killed your young men with the sword, along with your captured horses. I filled your nostrils with the stench of your camp, yet you did not return to Me,” declares the Lord.



I think this is why Rev. 1:2 says, "the nations ... will trample the holy city," because it had become like Sodom and Egypt.

And the "two witnesses" and olive trees in Rev. 11:4 are like the two anointed ones in Zechariah 4:8=11 who are mentioned in the context of Jerusalem.


Rev. 11:4:
These witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

Zech. 4:8-11:

Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will complete it” ...

Then I asked the angel, “What are the two olive trees on the right and left of the lampstand?” And I questioned him further, “What are the two olive branches beside the two gold pipes from which the golden oil pours?”

“Do you not know what these are?” he inquired.

“No, my lord,” I replied.

So he said, “These are the two anointed ones who are standing beside the Lord of all the earth.”

I don't think it matters if Rome (or Babylon) is called a "great city" elsewhere in Revelation, since there can be more than one great city in the world, and in this case the city is described as being "where their Lord was also crucified," which by every account I am aware of was Jerusalem, and it just seems like the simplest and best interpretation to me.
Last edited by John2 on Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Real Testimonium

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Sinouhe wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:58 am
5. There was a man who was a Jew; but had been driven away from his own country by an accusation laid against him for transgressing their laws, and by the fear he was under of punishment for the same: but in all respects a wicked man. He then living at Rome, professed to instruct men in the wisdom of the laws of Moses. He procured also three other men, entirely of the same character with himself, to be his partners. These men persuaded Fulvia, a woman of great dignity; and one that had embraced the Jewish religion, to send purple and gold to the temple at Jerusalem. And when they had gotten them, they employed them for their own uses, and spent the money themselves: on which account it was that they at first required it of her. Whereupon Tiberius, who had been informed of the thing by Saturninus, the husband of Fulvia, who desired inquiry might be made about it; ordered all the Jews to be banished out of Rome. At which time the consuls listed four thousand men out of them, and sent them to the island Sardinia: but punished a greater number of them, who were unwilling to become soldiers: on account of keeping the laws of their forefathers. Thus were these Jews banished out of the city by the wickedness of four men.
It looks like Paul :shock:
Yes, I thought the same. Tiberius making it a little too early goes against it though. Otherwise, very close indeed!
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