Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Post Reply
Philologus
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:13 pm

Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Philologus »

Why does Paul never quote Jesus, unambiguously, even in contexts where it would have helped his arguments?

Some people see "Paul's silence" as evidence that Jesus never existed. Others say that it was natural given that the recipients of the letters were familiar with Jesus' sayings or had access to them in some form, so there was no need to repeat them.

There is something strange about Paul's silence, given who he thought Jesus was, yet didn't bother to repeat anything Jesus said at all.

Alternative explanation (from a historicist's perspective):

Perhaps none of the sayings attributed to Jesus are authentic -- and scholars already agree many of them aren't -- simply because Jesus never said anything original, aside from teaching and quoting Hebrew scriptures. So if Paul were to quote Jesus, he would say, "Jesus said that the scriptures say so-and-so," which would be unnecessary.

Paul never quoted Jesus simply because there was nothing to quote. Jesus' teachings were identical to every other apocalyptic figure from his time, teachings that were based entirely on the Hebrew scriptures, which Paul himself used, as did all the other early Christians, to create the apocalyptic/Messianic narrative we're familiar with, regardless of whether Jesus saw himself as the focus of that narrative or his followers reached that conclusion after his death.

In other words, Jesus didn't have any original things to say. He was a leader of a movement who was executed, giving rise to later explanations of his death. That movement's ideology was all based on pre-existing content in the scriptures (Isaiah, Daniel, etc.), not on any original content provided by Jesus himself.

Paul never quoted Jesus because Jesus always just quoted the Hebrew scriptures, nothing more. All the sayings/parables attributed to him were later inventions.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 7872
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby »

Philologus wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:17 pm Why does Paul never quote Jesus, unambiguously, even in contexts where it would have helped his arguments?

1 Corinthians 7
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


Mark 10

2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this [a]precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. 11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”


1 Corinthians 11

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.


Luke 22:19-20

And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”

User avatar
Sinouhe
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Sinouhe »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:34 am
Philologus wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:17 pm Why does Paul never quote Jesus, unambiguously, even in contexts where it would have helped his arguments?

1 Corinthians 7
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


Mark 10

2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this [a]precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. 11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”


1 Corinthians 11

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.


Luke 22:19-20

And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”

7 letters, all filled with strictly Pauline teachings. Paul refers only twice to a teaching of Jesus, one of which came to him through a magical vision. It is extremely thin if we agree with the historicists that Jesus was an itinerant Jewish teacher.
And that won't explain why Paul is reduced to teach in his own name rather than using the teachings of the master. All this is much better explained if Jesus did not teach anything at all.

Moreover, the 2 texts of the gospels that you mention were written after the epistles of Paul. And it is almost universally recognized that the evangelists used the epistles of Paul to compose their texts.
Last edited by Sinouhe on Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
davidlau17
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed May 29, 2019 9:45 am

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by davidlau17 »

Regardless of whatever Jesus' disciples reported they heard Jesus saying, it may have not greatly affected Paul. Judging from the content of Paul's letters, Paul seemed to think he had the best grasp of Jesus' message through whatever his visions were telling him.

Galatians 1:11 For I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel that was proclaimed by me is not of human origin; for I did not receive it from a human source, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.


Galatians 2:6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.


2 Corinthians 11:5 I think that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.

Last edited by davidlau17 on Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giuseppe
Posts: 13658
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Philologus wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:17 pm Alternative explanation (from a historicist's perspective):

Perhaps none of the sayings attributed to Jesus are authentic -- and scholars already agree many of them aren't -- simply because Jesus never said anything original, aside from teaching and quoting Hebrew scriptures.
Russell Gmirkin has a better explanation:

The idea that Jesus was a teacher is a late idea peculiar to the later gospels and is not reflected in Revelation, which represents an earlier apocalyptic Jewish Christianity that saw Jesus as having been slain, “dead and come to life again” (Rev. 2.8; to be read in parallel with Rev. 11.8, 11-12), presently in heaven (Rev. 5.5-6, etc.) like the son of man in Daniel, and soon to return to triumph over the Romans and establish an earthly kingdom. This is pre-Gospels, so your references to the “Gospel Jesus”, “teaching ministry”, “Jesus’s preaching” completely miss the point. The early Jewish Christian snapshot of a militant entirely nationalistic Jesus in the book of Revelation is incompatible with the wishy-washy teacher and Pauline savior of the later gospels.

In short: Jesus was a violent rebel therefore Paul depoliticized his legacy by merely applying a perfect silence about his violent anti-Roman seditious message.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 7872
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Peter Kirby »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:59 am
Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:34 am
Philologus wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:17 pm Why does Paul never quote Jesus, unambiguously, even in contexts where it would have helped his arguments?

1 Corinthians 7
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


Mark 10

2 The Pharisees came and asked Him, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” testing Him.

3 And He answered and said to them, “What did Moses command you?”

4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.”

5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this [a]precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter. 11 So He said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. 12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”


1 Corinthians 11

23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.


Luke 22:19-20

And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”

7 letters, all filled with strictly Pauline teachings. Paul refers only twice to a teaching of Jesus, one of which came to him through a magical vision. It is extremely thin if we agree with the historicists that Jesus was an itinerant Jewish teacher.
And that won't explain why Paul is reduced to teach in his own name rather than using the teachings of the master. All this is much better explained if Jesus did not teach anything at all.
Maybe. An argument has certainly been made. Earl Doherty did a good job of it.

I'm not terribly interested in trying to argue for a particular answer right this moment.

In any case, we should start with facts.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by mlinssen »

Philologus wrote: Sat Jan 15, 2022 11:17 pm
Paul never quoted Jesus because Jesus always just quoted the Hebrew scriptures, nothing more. All the sayings/parables attributed to him were later inventions.
That's nonsense, of course. The only fun thing about Jesus are the parables, everything else is ruminations, especially the fake Judaic "predictions", most of which weren't even predictions to begin with. The parables are unprecedented, and you want to suggest that someone just made them up as fillers? Why, how, where from?
And I'm guessing you're unfamiliar with the so-called Gospel of Thomas...
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2263
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by GakuseiDon »

Whether communications from Jesus were via a celestial Jesus Christ who never lived on earth, or a Jesus who lived on earth and then communicated from heaven, or a Jesus who communicated while he lived on earth: it does seem that communication was possible, and that Paul can quote Jesus when he had cause to. That's the starting point for the question "Why didn't Paul quote Jesus more?"
Giuseppe
Posts: 13658
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

Paul quotes very a lot the Risen Christ.
User avatar
Sinouhe
Posts: 489
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Re: Why Paul never quotes Jesus

Post by Sinouhe »

That's nonsense, of course. The only fun thing about Jesus are the parables, everything else is ruminations, especially the fake Judaic "predictions", most of which weren't even predictions to begin with. The parables are unprecedented, and you want to suggest that someone just made them up as fillers? Why, how, where from?
I'm afraid he's right when he said the parables were made up by Mark and then Matthew / Luke.
The simple fact that Jesus teaches his disciples with parables looks again like a messianic fulfillment :

Ezekiel 20
3 “Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Have you come to inquire of me? As surely as I live, I will not let you inquire of me, declares the Sovereign Lord.’
4 “Will you judge them? Will you judge them, son of man? Then confront them with the detestable practices of their ancestors...
44 You will know that I am the Lord, when I deal with you for my name’s sake and not according to your evil ways and your corrupt practices, you people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”
46 Son of man, set your face toward the south; preach against the south and prophesy against the forest of the southland.
47 Say to the southern forest: ‘Hear the word of the Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry. The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it.
48 Everyone will see that I the Lord have kindled it; it will not be quenched.’”
49 Then I said, “Sovereign Lord, they are saying of me, ‘Isn’t he just telling parables?
1 The word of the Lord came to me:
2 “Son of man, set your face against Jerusalem and preach against the sanctuary. Prophesy against the land of Israel
3 and say to her: ‘This is what the Lord says: I am against you. I will draw my sword from its sheath and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked.
....

Psalm 78:2
I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old—

In any case, Paul never mentions any parables of Jesus. Yet this is the first thing that should characterize Jesus as a traveling preacher.

Mark contains 2 large parables : Mark 4:3-20 and Mark 12:1-12.
The second parable seems to have been written with the book of kings. The book of kings which is constantly used by Mark throughout the gospel.
Adam Winn demonstrates this quite clearly in his book https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0159 ... bl_vppi_i2.
And he gives a clear explanation how the parable of the wicked tenants was another imitation /rewriting of the books of kings.
I can put his study of the parable here if you're interested.

In view of all the imitations that Mark did of the Old testament, particularly the ELIJAH/ELISHAH narratives of the books of kings, it would not be surprising if the parable of the wicked tenants was another rewriting.

There is also a parable of Luke which probably comes from a first century Egyptian novel.
Post Reply