Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Peter Kirby
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Proof that The Man = Yeshu

Post by Peter Kirby »

from: https://www.academia.edu/49575135/The_V ... ldot_Yeshu

“Mistress, the queen, far be it from you to believe his words, for by principle he has to be spiritual and not bodily. And about him the scripture said, ‘Blessed is the man,’ for ‘the man’ adds up to the calculation of ‘Yeshu,’ for the word ‘Yeshu’ has the initial letters of ‘May his name and memory be obliterated.’ And on account of the principle it is right to obliterate his name from the world. And we admit that he is a man, and about him the scripture said, ‘Cursed is the man who makes, etc.’ (Deut. 27:15) But if he is a prophet, behold, it is said, ‘And the man who acts presumptively without listening to the priest, etc.’ (Deut. 17:12) But he is a bastard, and the son of a menstruant, and not the Son of God, and condemned to four deaths by the Judgment House.”

"The man" (שיאה) in Gematria equals 316 = 300 + 10 + 1 + 5.

"Yeshu" (ושי) in Gemetria equals 316 = 6 + 300 + 10.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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If you're wondering, in the Greek numbering system:

316 = 300 + 10 + 6 = T I C

You can see that this is how the number six appears in Greek manuscripts from papyrus 115:

Image

The digamma (6) wasn't used in Greek in a context other than writing numbers.

When so used, it also looks like the lunate sigma (C). Sigma, having a value of 200, wasn't easily confused with it, when in numbers.

Notice in the Epistle of Barnabas:
Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I' stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). And because the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also three hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.
And Clement says:
As then in astronomy we have Abraham as an instance, so also in arithmetic we have the same Abraham. For, hearing that Lot was taken captive, and having numbered his own servants, born in his house, 318, he defeats a very great number of the enemy. They say, then, that the character representing 300 is, as to shape, the type of the Lord's sign, and that the Iota and the Eta indicate the Saviour's name; that it was indicated, accordingly, that Abraham's domestics were in salvation, who having fled to the Sign and the Name became lords of the captives, and of the very many unbelieving nations that followed them. (Clement, Stromata, Book 6, Chapter 11)
So, just as the value of 318 can stand for IH and T, the value of 316 could stand for IC and T.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:03 pm from: https://www.academia.edu/49575135/The_V ... ldot_Yeshu

“Mistress, the queen, far be it from you to believe his words, for by principle he has to be spiritual and not bodily. And about him the scripture said, ‘Blessed is the man,’ for ‘the man’ adds up to the calculation of ‘Yeshu,’ for the word ‘Yeshu’ has the initial letters of ‘May his name and memory be obliterated.’ And on account of the principle it is right to obliterate his name from the world. And we admit that he is a man, and about him the scripture said, ‘Cursed is the man who makes, etc.’ (Deut. 27:15) But if he is a prophet, behold, it is said, ‘And the man who acts presumptively without listening to the priest, etc.’ (Deut. 17:12) But he is a bastard, and the son of a menstruant, and not the Son of God, and condemned to four deaths by the Judgment House.”

"The man" (שיאה) in Gematria equals 316 = 300 + 10 + 1 + 5.

"Yeshu" (ושי) in Gemetria equals 316 = 6 + 300 + 10.
Origen quoted the same verse.
Secret Alias wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:30 pm This is the line that changed my life. From Origen to Africanus.
Φασὶ δὲ οἱ Ἑβραῖοι «ἐσσὰ» μὲν καλεῖσθαι τὴν γυναῖκα· δηλοῦσθαι δὲ ἀπὸ τῆς λέξεως τὸ «ἔλαβον,» «Χῶς ἰσουὼθ ἐσσά,» ὅπερ ἑρμηνεύεται· «Ποτήριον σωτηρίου λήψομαι·» «ἴς» δὲ τὸν ἄνδρα, ὡς φανερὸν ἐκ τοῦ· «Ἐσρὴ ἀΐς,» ὅπερ ἐστί· «Μακάριος ἀνήρ.»
Now the Jews say that the woman was called Essa, and that taken is a translation of this word as is evident from chos isouoth essa, which means, I have taken the cup of salvation; and that is means man, as we see from Hesre aïs, which is, Blessed is the man. According to the Jews, then, is is man, and essa, woman, because she was taken out of her husband (is).
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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I finished my paper on this and was about to get my friends wife to edit it. But I will have to add this. Thank you. Let me know if you'd be interested in reading it. Definitely has a mythicist slant.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Might put this at the head of the paper.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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When I was starting to come to this forum my dad used to think this interest I had was a brotlose kunst. That's all he used to say. Then he died. And I am still here. I always thought. Maybe I'd come up with something grand. Something to outlive my mortality. That was the plan TBH.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Secret Alias wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:14 am I finished my paper on this and was about to get my friends wife to edit it. But I will have to add this. Thank you. Let me know if you'd be interested in reading it. Definitely has a mythicist slant.
Yes, I'd like to read it.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Edit: Never mind.
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:03 pm from: https://www.academia.edu/49575135/The_V ... ldot_Yeshu

“Mistress, the queen, far be it from you to believe his words, for by principle he has to be spiritual and not bodily. And about him the scripture said, ‘Blessed is the man,’ for ‘the man’ adds up to the calculation of ‘Yeshu,’ for the word ‘Yeshu’ has the initial letters of ‘May his name and memory be obliterated.’ And on account of the principle it is right to obliterate his name from the world. And we admit that he is a man, and about him the scripture said, ‘Cursed is the man who makes, etc.’ (Deut. 27:15) But if he is a prophet, behold, it is said, ‘And the man who acts presumptively without listening to the priest, etc.’ (Deut. 17:12) But he is a bastard, and the son of a menstruant, and not the Son of God, and condemned to four deaths by the Judgment House.”

"The man" (שיאה) in Gematria equals 316 = 300 + 10 + 1 + 5.

"Yeshu" (ושי) in Gemetria equals 316 = 6 + 300 + 10.
The same text uses the number 316 again later:

And they took Yeshu and brought him to the accursed land with the 316 apostates to the city Antochia.

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Ken Olson
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Re: Proof that The Man = Yeshu

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Peter Kirby wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:03 pm from: https://www.academia.edu/49575135/The_V ... ldot_Yeshu

“Mistress, the queen, far be it from you to believe his words, for by principle he has to be spiritual and not bodily. And about him the scripture said, ‘Blessed is the man,’ for ‘the man’ adds up to the calculation of ‘Yeshu,’ for the word ‘Yeshu’ has the initial letters of ‘May his name and memory be obliterated.’ And on account of the principle it is right to obliterate his name from the world. And we admit that he is a man, and about him the scripture said, ‘Cursed is the man who makes, etc.’ (Deut. 27:15) But if he is a prophet, behold, it is said, ‘And the man who acts presumptively without listening to the priest, etc.’ (Deut. 17:12) But he is a bastard, and the son of a menstruant, and not the Son of God, and condemned to four deaths by the Judgment House.”

"The man" (שיאה) in Gematria equals 316 = 300 + 10 + 1 + 5.

"Yeshu" (ושי) in Gemetria equals 316 = 6 + 300 + 10.
Peter,

Thanks. The Toldot Yeshu is a fascinating text, particularly in this version, which I haven't read before. It seems to be pretty late, particularly if the reference to the Yosiphun in chapter 1 is to the 10th century Sefer Josippon. It has characters from several centuries (or fictional characters based on characters from several centuries) jumbled together from Simon ben Shetah (late 2nd/early first century BCE) to Nestor, who I think is supposed to be the namesake of the Nestorian Church (5th century CE) who has a falling out with Paulo (Paul) and goes to Babel. Queen Helena, who in other versions of the story is the wife of Alexander Jannaeus and sister of Simon Ben Shetah (early 1st century BCE) has become the wife of Constantine (confusion with the 4th century Helena the mother of Constantine?).

In the passage you quote, the sages accept Yeshu's claim to be 'the man' referred to in scripture (Ps 1:1), but then use the fact to attack him - his name is acronym for 'May his name and memory be obliterated' and, through gematria, he is 'the man' referred to negatively in Deut. 27.15 and Deut. 17.11. (I'm not really sure how Isa 11.4 is supposed to work in context).

The connection of Yeshu's name (which has to be shortened form the form Yehoshua it had in chapter 2 on p. 7) to 'the man' through gematria and making it into an acronym for a sentence requiring his obliteration will seem contrived to us. The thing is, I think it may have been intended that way by the author. The whole story is a farce. It's mocking Yeshu and his followers, but it seems to be mocking the sages of Yisrael and everyone else as well. I'm not sure any of it including the gematria was meant to be taken seriously. The sages of Israel crucify Jesus on a cabbage tree (p. 43; I've seen this rendered as a fennel stalk in another version) and one of the elders says to the others: 'Let us go and crucify him on this cabbage.'

But I'm wondering what you think are the takeaways of the The Man = Yeshu in the Toldot. What light, if any, does this shed on the theory that the name Jesus is derived from איש, or that איש was the name of the human form of God in the OT, or that the Iota Sigma in NT and early Christian text originally designated איש?

Best,

Ken
Last edited by Ken Olson on Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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