616 Or?
616 Or?
In Revelation XIC with an overline is used to identify the beast. While some feel that it is gematria where X=600, I=10, and C (as a digamma)=6 adding up to 616, I however, find myself wondering. For one thing, there are no other examples, that I know of, of gematria in the NT texts. So why would XIC be considered one? Why not just a contracted form of abbreviation like we see in other examples (XPC etc)? Something like the name Χειρίσοφος (just a quick example) perhaps?
What Greek nouns can we come up with that would fit a contracted abbreviation of XIC?
What Greek nouns can we come up with that would fit a contracted abbreviation of XIC?
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Re: 616 Or?
Purely context free, why not?
Unfortunately, and as exciting as it sounds... in context, it's explicitly identified as a number, three times.
χξϚ and χιϚ (which last character, of course, also looks like lunate sigma), on their own, have no mystery as numbers. They are the standard way of writing 666 or 616, respectively, which is as obvious to the Greek reader as writing 666 or 616 is to us.Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate [ψηφίζω] the number [ἀριθμός] of the beast, for it is a number [ἀριθμός] that stands for a person. His number [ἀριθμός] is [χξϚ = 666 or χιϚ = 616].
Without making ourselves fools, the best we can hope for is to make a pun out of the number. A number is certainly there.
An overline is also a typical practice when writing a number in a text, not restricted to Jewish and Christian texts.
Technically, it's not accurate to describe XIC itself as gemetria. It's just a number.So why would XIC be considered one?
However, "a number that stands for a person" doesn't take a genius to figure out that using the value of letters in a name could be involved. On the other hand, if that suggestion is rejected, the number is still a number. Being a number, it can't be "just" a contracted form of abbreviation. At best, it could also be that (a pun).
Re: 616 Or?
ψηφισάτω (psephisato). Possible translations include "to count", "to reckon" and also "to vote" or "to decide"Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 pmWisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate [ψηφίζω] the number [ἀριθμός] of the beast, for it is a number [ἀριθμός] that stands for a person. His number [ἀριθμός] is [χξϚ = 666 or χιϚ = 616].
p47 Revelation 13:16-14:4
Also, I seem to see XZC (Chi-Zeta-Sigma) not χξϚ (Chi-Xce-Sigma) or χιϚ (Chi-Iota-Sigma)
Re: 616 Or?
psephisato is quite literally "let pebble". Didn't the ancient Greeks and Romans use pebbles to vote? White and black for yes and no.
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Re: 616 Or?
That doesn't matter, Jax. You're tilting at windmills. It says number.Jax wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:38 pmψηφισάτω (psephisato). Possible translations include "to count", "to reckon" and also "to vote" or "to decide"Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 pmWisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate [ψηφίζω] the number [ἀριθμός] of the beast, for it is a number [ἀριθμός] that stands for a person. His number [ἀριθμός] is [χξϚ = 666 or χιϚ = 616].
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Re: 616 Or?
It looks more like the letter in δεξιᾶς at the top of the page (the tear in the papyrus is pointing down at it), which also has the squiggle in the center and the flat bottom stroke, lacking from the zeta (no squiggle, curved bottom stroke).
Re: 616 Or?
Ok. Yeah. I think you are right.Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:40 pmIt looks more like the letter in δεξιᾶς at the top of the page (the tear in the papyrus is pointing down at it), which also has the squiggle in the center and the flat bottom stroke, lacking from the zeta (no squiggle, curved bottom stroke).
You know though, it would be helpful to quit using minuscule to translate uncial letters. If we are trying to have a better understanding of the original texts then we should only use the Greek uncial and actual photographs of the texts. Just one less barrier to the original material.
My 2 cents.
Re: 616 Or?
http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/sear ... &x=46&y=19Jax wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:56 pm Ok. Yeah. I think you are right.
You know though, it would be helpful to quit using minuscule to translate uncial letters. If we are trying to have a better understanding of the original texts then we should only use the Greek uncial and actual photographs of the texts. Just one less barrier to the original material.
My 2 cents.