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616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:03 pm
by Jax
In Revelation XIC with an overline is used to identify the beast. While some feel that it is gematria where X=600, I=10, and C (as a digamma)=6 adding up to 616, I however, find myself wondering. For one thing, there are no other examples, that I know of, of gematria in the NT texts. So why would XIC be considered one? Why not just a contracted form of abbreviation like we see in other examples (XPC etc)? Something like the name Χειρίσοφος (just a quick example) perhaps?

What Greek nouns can we come up with that would fit a contracted abbreviation of XIC? :scratch:

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:15 pm
by Jax
phos = sword?

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 pm
by Peter Kirby
Jax wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:03 pm Why not just a contracted form of abbreviation
Purely context free, why not?

Unfortunately, and as exciting as it sounds... in context, it's explicitly identified as a number, three times.
Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate [ψηφίζω] the number [ἀριθμός] of the beast, for it is a number [ἀριθμός] that stands for a person. His number [ἀριθμός] is [χξϚ = 666 or χιϚ = 616].
χξϚ and χιϚ (which last character, of course, also looks like lunate sigma), on their own, have no mystery as numbers. They are the standard way of writing 666 or 616, respectively, which is as obvious to the Greek reader as writing 666 or 616 is to us.

Without making ourselves fools, the best we can hope for is to make a pun out of the number. A number is certainly there.

An overline is also a typical practice when writing a number in a text, not restricted to Jewish and Christian texts.
So why would XIC be considered one?
Technically, it's not accurate to describe XIC itself as gemetria. It's just a number.

However, "a number that stands for a person" doesn't take a genius to figure out that using the value of letters in a name could be involved. On the other hand, if that suggestion is rejected, the number is still a number. Being a number, it can't be "just" a contracted form of abbreviation. At best, it could also be that (a pun).

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:38 pm
by Jax
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 pm
Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate [ψηφίζω] the number [ἀριθμός] of the beast, for it is a number [ἀριθμός] that stands for a person. His number [ἀριθμός] is [χξϚ = 666 or χιϚ = 616].
ψηφισάτω (psephisato). Possible translations include "to count", "to reckon" and also "to vote" or "to decide"

p47 Revelation 13:16-14:4
Image

Also, I seem to see XZC (Chi-Zeta-Sigma) not χξϚ (Chi-Xce-Sigma) or χιϚ (Chi-Iota-Sigma)

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:46 pm
by Jax
psephisato is quite literally "let pebble". Didn't the ancient Greeks and Romans use pebbles to vote? White and black for yes and no.

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:14 pm
by Jax
Here is an example of a Zeta in the word zoon lower down in the page.
Image

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:24 pm
by Peter Kirby
Jax wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:38 pm
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:34 pm
Wisdom is needed here; one who understands can calculate [ψηφίζω] the number [ἀριθμός] of the beast, for it is a number [ἀριθμός] that stands for a person. His number [ἀριθμός] is [χξϚ = 666 or χιϚ = 616].
ψηφισάτω (psephisato). Possible translations include "to count", "to reckon" and also "to vote" or "to decide"
That doesn't matter, Jax. You're tilting at windmills. It says number.

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:40 pm
by Peter Kirby
Jax wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:14 pm Here is an example of a Zeta in the word zoon lower down in the page.
Image
It looks more like the letter in δεξιᾶς at the top of the page (the tear in the papyrus is pointing down at it), which also has the squiggle in the center and the flat bottom stroke, lacking from the zeta (no squiggle, curved bottom stroke).

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:56 pm
by Jax
Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:40 pm
Jax wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:14 pm Here is an example of a Zeta in the word zoon lower down in the page.
Image
It looks more like the letter in δεξιᾶς at the top of the page (the tear in the papyrus is pointing down at it), which also has the squiggle in the center and the flat bottom stroke, lacking from the zeta (no squiggle, curved bottom stroke).
Ok. Yeah. I think you are right.

You know though, it would be helpful to quit using minuscule to translate uncial letters. If we are trying to have a better understanding of the original texts then we should only use the Greek uncial and actual photographs of the texts. Just one less barrier to the original material.

My 2 cents.

Re: 616 Or?

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:07 am
by mlinssen
Jax wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:56 pm Ok. Yeah. I think you are right.

You know though, it would be helpful to quit using minuscule to translate uncial letters. If we are trying to have a better understanding of the original texts then we should only use the Greek uncial and actual photographs of the texts. Just one less barrier to the original material.

My 2 cents.
http://www.codex-sinaiticus.net/en/sear ... &x=46&y=19