Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

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Secret Alias
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Re: Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

Post by Secret Alias »

Because he had to spend all this time scanning the fucking page and uploading it and then scanning another page. For what? The answer is in the footnote he's scanning. So it's like 'hey guys I am being transparent' when it fact it's like 'hey fucking morons I am going to put the page with the Greek that explains why Marcovich did this but you're all too stupid to even read it.'
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Re: Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:06 pm "My thanks to Peter Kirby for pointing out this passage to me." Second footnote.
My email is peterkirby@gmail.com if you want to send me a copy to look at
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Re: Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

Post by Secret Alias »

The only thing that you might be interested in is that Kantor (I think the spelling is right) found another example in Origen's Commentary on Matthew. Also he says that Origen got the idea from the source for the second column of the Hexapla which is generally thought to be an independent source which predates the Hexapla. So there was an understanding as to how to render ish in Greek.
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Re: Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

Post by Secret Alias »

Got to play chess with my son. He's really into this now.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

Post by MrMacSon »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:01 pm
Marcovich's full statement is
  • "Justin derived the name Jesus from Hebrew 'ish ("man") and from Greek Ιάσων = Σωτήρ [Soter]"

    Ιάσων = Iásōn [later Jason] = an ancient Greek mythological hero (leader of the Argonauts) whose quest for the Golden Fleece featured in Greek literature

    The Golden Fleece has a number of interpretations including representing royal power
Ken Olson wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:16 pm
... In the case of the Greek, Marcovich is likely correct that Justin is equating Ἰησοῦς with the Greek name Ἰάσων meaning Saviour (more literally ‘healer’) and gives several supporting citations. Also, Josephus recounts that the High Priest Jesus changed his name to Jason in Ant. 12.5.1/239 and a Jason son of Eleazar is mentioned in 1 Macc. 8.17. But Ἰησοῦς also meant something at least very much like Σωτήρ in Hebrew, at least according to Jewish folk etymologies. Philo says that Ἰησοῦς meant σωτηρία κυρίου, or ‘the salvation of the Lord’ in On the Change of Names 121.


Antiquities 12.5


. 1 [237] About this time, upon the death of Onias the high priest [the son of Simeon the Just], they gave the high priesthood to Jesus his brother; for that son which Onias left [Onias IV] was yet but an infant ... But this Jesus...was deprived of the high priesthood by the king, who was angry with him, and gave it to his younger brother, whose name also was Onias; for Simeon had these three sons, to each of which the priesthood came ...

This Jesus changed his name to Jason, but Onias was called Menelaus. Now as the former high priest, Jesus, raised a sedition against Menelaus, who was ordained after him, the multitude were divided between them both. And the sons of Tobias took the part of Menelaus, but the greater part of the people assisted Jason; and by that means Menelaus and the sons of Tobias were distressed, and retired to Antiochus, and informed him that they were desirous to leave the laws of their country, and the Jewish way of living according to them, and to follow the king's laws, and the Grecian way of living.

Wherefore they desired his permission to build them a Gymnasium at Jerusalem. 2 And when he had given them leave, they also hid the circumcision of their genitals, that even when they were naked they might appear to be Greeks. Accordingly, they left off all the customs that belonged to their own country, and imitated the practices of the other nations ...

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... 0AJ%2012.5



1 Maccabees 8:17 in context


13 That whom they had a mind to help to a kingdom, those reigned: and whom they would, they deposed from a kingdom: and they were greatly exalted.

14 And none of all these wore a crown, or was clothed in purple, to be magnified thereby.

15 And that they made themselves a senate house, and consulted daily three hundred and twenty men, that sat in council always for the people, that they might do the things that were right.

16 And that they committed their government to one man every year, to rule over all their country, and they all obey one, and there is no envy, nor jealousy amongst them.


17 So Judas chose Eupolemus the son of John, the son of Jacob, and Jason the son of Eleazar, and he sent them to Rome to make a league of amity and confederacy with them.

18 And that they might take off from them the yoke of the Grecians, for they saw that they oppressed the kingdom of Israel with servitude.

19 And they went to Rome, a very long journey, and they entered into the senate house, and said:

20 "Judas Machabeus, and his brethren, and the people of the Jews have sent us to you, to make alliance and peace with you, and that we may be registered your confederates and friends."

21 And the proposal was pleasing in their sight.

22 And this is the copy of the writing that they wrote back again, graven in tables of brass, and sent to Jerusalem, that it might be with them there for a memorial of the peace and alliance.

23 GOOD SUCCESS BE TO THE ROMANS, and to the people of the Jews, by sea and by land for ever: and far be the sword and enemy from them.

24 But if there come first any war upon the Romans, or any of their confederates, in all their dominions:

25 The nation of the Jews shall help them according as the time shall direct, with all their heart ...


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=DRA



Philo On the Change of Names


By the word “man” <“ἄνθρωπος”> they point out the world which reason alone discerns,a by “Egyptian” they represent the world of sense. [119] On hearing this the father will ask again, "where is the man?" [Exodus 2:20]. In what part of your surroundings does the element of the reason dwell? Why have you left him so easily, and why when you once fell in with him did you not take to your arms that treasure, so beautiful above all, so profitable to yourselves? But if you have not as yet, [120] at least now “invite him that he may eat” [Exodus 2:20] and feed on your advance to higher stages of goodness and a closer affinity to him. Perhaps he will even dwell among you and wed the winged, inspired and prophetic nature called Zipporah [Exodus 2:20].
  1. For “Man” standing for 'the true man', the mind, cf. De Agr. 9, Quis Rerum 231, De Fug. 71, and elsewhere.

XXI. [121] So much for this. But Moses also changes the name of Hoshea to Joshua [Num. 13:17], thus transforming the individual who embodies a state into the state itself <Ἰησοῦν, τὸν ποιὸν εἰς ἕξιν μεταχαράττων>.a For Hoshea by interpretation is “he [that is, a particular individual] is saved.” But Joshua is “salvation/safety of the Lord” <Ἰησοῦς δὲ σωτηρία κυρίου>, a name for the best possible state. [122] For states are better than the individuals who embody them, as music is better than the musician and medicine than the physician, and every art than every artist, better both in everlastingness and in power and in unerring mastery over its subject matter. The state is everlasting, active, perfect; the individual is mortal, acted on, imperfect; and the imperishable is higher and greater than the mortal, the acting cause than that on which it acts, and the perfect than the imperfect. [123] Thus in the above also we see the coin which represents the man re-minted in a better form.
  1. ποιός (a person of a particular kind) is regularly used in antithesis to other ποιοί or ἄποιοι; but it may also be used in antithesis to ποιότης, cf. ποιόν τι ἀλλʼ οὐ ποιότητα, Theaetetus 182 a. In this case the ποιός is the concrete of the abstract ποιότης. Philo has used it in exactly the same way in Leg. All. i. 67, 79, and also in Leg. All. ii. 18, where ὁ κατὰ τὰς ἀρετὰς ποιός is φρόνιμος or σώφρων, etc., corresponding to φρόνησις, σωφροσύνη, etc.

But in Caleb we have a total change of the man himself. For we read “there was another spirit in him” [Num. 14:24], as though the ruling mind in him was changed to supreme perfection. For Caleb is by interpretation “all heart,” [124] and this is a figurative way of shewing that his was no partial change of a soul wavering and oscillating, but a change to proved excellence of the whole and entire soul which dislodged anything that was not entirely laudable by thoughts of repentance; for when it thus washed away its defilements, and made use of the lustrations and purifications of wisdom, it could not but be clean and fair.

XXII. [125] The chief of the prophets proves to have many names. When he interprets and teaches the oracles vouchsafed to him he is called Moses; when he prays and blesses the people, he is a Man of God [Deut. 33:1]; and when Egypt is paying the penalties for its impious deeds he is the god [Ex. 7:1] of Pharaoh, the king of the country. [126] Why these three? Because to enact fresh laws for the benefit of those to whom they would apply is the task of one whose hands are ever in touch with divine things, one who is called up [Ex. 24:1] by the Lawgiver who speaks in oracles, one who has received from Him a great gift, the power of language to express prophet-like the holy laws ...


Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Marcovich’s conjectural ἄνθρωπος in Justin Martyr’s First Apology 33.7

Post by Ken Olson »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:51 pm How about this.

Marcovich lays down his justification in the fucking article. He's got some Church Fathers that say it means 'Savior' (Cyril of Jerusalem for instance) and then he has Justin saying it means man and Savior elsewhere. What does a 'serious scholar' from Duke do? He like FUCKING IGNORES all of this and develops the stupidest possible interpretation of the passage. Ken can read the Greek. Most of the people here can't. He's got to be able to see that Marcovich justifies ANTHROPOS by citing another fucking example from Justin's writings. Complete fucking waste of time. He didn't write this thread because he's interested in what Justin said or didn't say. He's mad that you as the Daddy of the forum favored one of his kids over the other. Fucking juvenile mind.
Yes, of course Marcovich was emending the text of 1 Apology 33.7 by adding ἄνθρωπος on the basis of 2 Apology 6.4. That was in the part of his work that I quoted and I did not attempt to suppress it. My point, however, was that it was not necessary to conjecturally emend the text in the first place as it makes sense as it is. The fact that Justin pairs savior with man elsewhere does not mean he has to have used man as well when he used savior in 1 Apology 33.7. I'm not saying Marcovich's emendation of 33.7 by adding ἄνθρωπος is stupid or impossible, just that it is not necessary. You called my argument 'the stupidest possible interpretation of the passage.' I do not think it is, and I do not think you can show that it is. The burden of proof is on the emender to show the emendation is necessary, whereas you write as though unless including ἄνθρωπος in the text is impossible it has to be accepted. Your use of inflated rhetoric and accusations makes it difficult to discuss things with you.

If I could ask a question of you about something you said without starting a flame war: in your previous response when I brought up this topic of Marcovich's emendation:
The same understanding can be garnered through the LXX where names like Ishbaal are rendered following the same Greek interpretation of Hebrew. It is a significant argument and it is used by other people to establish how Hebrew and Greek understood one another.
I understand that proper names with the Hebrew Ish element in them might be rendered into Greek with Iota Sigma. Do you know of any examples of Jewish writers writing in Greek rendering the word 'man' in OT passages (such as the man who wrestled Jacob) where God appears in the form of a man as Iota Sigma? Are there LXX manuscripts that do this, or does Philo do this when recounting OT stories?

Best,

Ken
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