How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Secret Alias »

Here's my thesis: people are only 'sure' that Jesus existed because the herd does too. As more and more 'nones' are born into the world religious studies becomes essentially another humanities credit. It all comes down to 'interpretation' rather than facts. How long before we include mythicism and theories of the non-existence of Jesus in university courses? I think in less than twenty years most universities will include 'non' theories (non-existence of Jesus 'mythicism' is a terrible terminology) in their course curriculum. What do you think? How long if ever?

I think it's all tied to how close people are to Christianity. If they once believed, their parents etc. It has nothing to do with whether or not the non-existence of Jesus does or doesn't make sense.
Secret Alias
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Secret Alias »

Maybe they will also teach courses about Giuseppe. Giuseppe: The 'John the Baptist' of Internet Mythicism.
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Giuseppe »

If there will be still peace in the world for other 100 years, then surely the mythicism can only increase pacifically its influence.

The risk for mythicism is that it is sufficient even only a new war to make the humanity fall again in a new dark age, and the religious faith of the "herd" in the historical Jesus will come back more strong than ever. Afterall, if the idea of a historical Jesus worked so well after the 70 or 135 CE... ...even more so after a new war today.

In whiletime, Robert M. Price wrote that the diffusion of the Islam is good news for mythicism: I am not so sure about the implication.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by GakuseiDon »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:13 pm Here's my thesis: people are only 'sure' that Jesus existed because the herd does too... How long before we include mythicism and theories of the non-existence of Jesus in university courses? I think in less than twenty years most universities will include 'non' theories (non-existence of Jesus 'mythicism' is a terrible terminology) in their course curriculum.
In which case it will end up being the same herd, but following a different cow.
Secret Alias wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:13 pmI think it's all tied to how close people are to Christianity. If they once believed, their parents etc. It has nothing to do with whether or not the non-existence of Jesus does or doesn't make sense.
That notion is why people suspect that Tim O'Neill is "really a Christian apologist" instead of the firm atheist that he is. Do we even need to try to guess the motives of people before examining their position?

The issue is clearly defining the statement being made when we talk about a "historical Jesus". I don't "believe in a historical Jesus". I think that a historical Jesus is the best explanation for the texts coming out of the First Century CE. But the data isn't clear enough to get a clear picture of who that historical Jesus was, to the point that "a historical Jesus existed" is all but an empty statement.
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

How much inclusion did you have in mind, SA?

Any existing "Historical Jesus" service course could include a unit, "Those who say our subject doesn't exist." Next semester, then, or maybe there are such units already being taught.

Something more extensive in pastoral formation is probably not too far off, either. A recent Austalian poll reports about 20% of adult Australians prefer "Jesus was a fictional or mythological character" to "... a real person who actually lived."

https://ncls.org.au/news/is-jesus-real-to-australians

This is similar to the "Talking Jesus" 2015 poll in the UK. also with ~ 20% fictional-or-mythological reported

https://talkingjesus.org/2015-research/

That may not be a "scholarly" problem, but pastoral formation is professional education, and what's up with 1/5 of the potential client base is the sort of thing that a professional school course can be built around.

That doesn't seem too far off in principle. But maybe you had something else or something more in mind?
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Secret Alias »

Unfortunately I am a salesman. It's in my blood. In order to get my EU citizenship I had to do my genealogy. It was like 500 years of Talmudists and then 200 years of salesmen. I only know that whether Jesus did or didn't exist the reason we think one way or the other is because of fashion. It was once fashionable to imagine that a guy to teach us to love one another and be good citizens because there's a guy upstairs watching our every move. A very useful beneficial story for the human race. I think Christianity has probably made the world a much better place than most people give it credit. I am of an age that I can say the world was probably better with rather than without Christianity. At least people had consciences. It made people embarrassed to be fucking cockroaches. But that's another story.

But at the same time is there really compelling evidence for the idea that the gospel contains 'history'? I don't know. But I know that as the world becomes less religious the university curriculum with reflect the 'none-ness' of the student body.
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Secret Alias »

In which case it will end up being the same herd, but following a different cow.
True. You know what Nietzsche says 'where the herd gather there also gathers a smell.'
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Secret Alias »

Do we even need to try to guess the motives of people before examining their position?
But that raises another question. Is objectivity even possible? Are we free to choose what to believe or do drives determine what we see how we process information even before we have our first thought? I tend to think the latter.
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Secret Alias »

Paul,

I was just thinking 'selfishly' that it would be useful for those studying Christian sectarian groups not to have to use 'Jesus' in a sentence about Christianity. You know. Whether or not the gospel is based on something historical it is Paul or Mark's vision of what this X is that matters. I think referencing Jesus as a historical person who 'really' did X Y or Z gets in the way of us understanding heretical groups who didn't think Jesus was a human being.

It's like using the word 'Jew' or 'Jewish' to describe ALL Israelite traditions. So if you want to bring in the Samaritans into a discussion you have struggle to find a fair term to describe the meta-tradition that includes them AND the Jews. Hebrew? Hebrews? Semitic? Israelite?
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Jax
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Re: How Long Before They Include 'Jesus Might Not Have Existed' in University Courses About Christianity?

Post by Jax »

Personally I don't think making the statement that Jesus didn't exist is all that helpful either. If we are honest then all we can say is that a IC that is represented in the Gospel stories probably is a fictional construct.

Also, if you think that people have their backs up over critical race theory just wait until you propose a class that debunks Jesus. Hope you have some flame retardant underwear.
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