TF language issues

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spin
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TF language issues

Post by spin »

I created a list of various language issues noted about the Testimonium Flavianum from the following works for my own needs, ordering them as seen below, and I thought it might be of some use for forum members.

Texts used, preceded by letters used in the comments section below that indicate the source:

PB "Testimonium Flavianum", in Per Bilde: Collected Studies on Philo and Josephus, Becker et al. edds, 2016 Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 76-78

F "On the Authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum Attributed to Josephus", Louis H. Feldman, in New Perspectives on Jewish-Christian Relations: In Honor of David Berger, Carlebach & Schacter, 2012 Brill. 21-23

F>Th, F>Moreau, Feldman citing Thackeray, Feldman citing Moreau
Josephus and Modern Scholarship (1937-1980), Louis H. Feldman, 1984 Walter de Gruyter

M Josephus and the New Testament, Steve Mason, 1992 Hendrickson. 169-170

NB "The continuing enigma of Josephus's testimony about Jesus", Birdsall, J Neville, Bulletin of the John Rylands Library. 1985;67(2). 619-621


Representations in Roman script:

Greek has short and long vowels, eg omicron (little o) and omega (big o). To indicate long vowels, Bilde uses a circumflex (ˆ) and Feldman uses a macron (ˉ), but they are interchangeable for us.
  • Eta:   η transliterations: ê ē
  • Omega: ω transliterations: ô ō
  • Upsilon: υ transliterations: u y (kurios/kyrios)
Mason uses phyle for φῦλον in m., which I'd write fulon.

You don't need to worry about the accent signs above the Greek vowels, though the mark that looks like a backward comma in print indicates heavy breathing, manifested as "h" in Roman characters, so ὁ χριστὸς in g. is ho christos and ἠδονῇ in e. is rendered as hêdonê by Bilde.

Antiquities of the Jews, 18.63-64 (AJ 18.3.3)
[translation: Mason]

a.
About this time comes Jesus,
Γίνεται δὲ κατὰ τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ᾿Ιησοῦς


F ginetai, grammatically a present-tense verb, While Josephus uses the historical present elsewhere to describe past actions, in this context the present tense is striking because it suggests that Josephus believes Jesus is still alive.
PB this expression rarely appears with a person as its subject and, when it does, it never appears with the meaning "come" or "appear".

b.
a wise man,
σοφὸς ἀνήρ


PB Sophos anêr is used in Ant. 8.53 about Solomon and in Ant. 10.237 about Daniel, whereas, in Ap. 1.236, it is used about the wise Egyptian prophet Amenophis (cf. Ap. 1.232). Otherwise, it is not used in Josephus.

c.
if indeed it is proper to call him a man.
εἴγε ἄνδρα αὐτὸν λέγειν χρή


F "If, indeed, one ought to call him a man" would seem to be a Christian interpolation, since it presupposes that Jesus was divine.
PB "[ei ge] is rarely written as one word."

d.
For he was a worker of incredible deeds,
ἦν γὰρ παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητής


F The word poiētēs (translated above as “one who wrought”), which is here used of Jesus' feats, is always used by Josephus to refer to poets and never with the meaning it has here.
PB poiêtês as it is used here – in this construction as "practice" or "perform" – has no parallel in Josephus but appears occasionally in the NT; for example, in Jas 1.22. 25, cf. Matt. 11.2; Jn. 5.20. 36; 10.38; 14.12 and 15.24.

Paradoxôn ergôn appears twice in Josephus, namely in Ant. 9.182 and 12.63. However, only the former text is a genuine parallel, as the expression used here is about the miracles of Eliah.
NB διδάσκαλος is used seventeen times and in about half the cases has the pejorative sense of teaching something bad; but in all but one case, when a genitive is found following the word, it defines the content of the teaching and not the recipients, as the phrase "teacher of those who accept the truth gladly" demands.

ποιητής.. elsewhere in Josephus the word always means "poet", never "one who does (something)."

e.
a teacher of those who accept the truth with pleasure,
διδάσκαλος ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἠδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων


F Although the word didaskalos is a common one in Josephus's writings, in all but one case (War 7.444), when a genitive follows the word it indicates the content of the teaching rather than the identity of the recipients of the teaching. Here, however, it indicates the identity of the recipients of the teaching.
PB Didaskalos anthrôpôn: The word didaskalos is not frequent in Josephus, where it appears 17 times, but it is only used once in the same way as in Ant. 18.63, namely in Bell. 7.444, where it is used negatively about the Roman governor in Libya, Catullus: "he was a teacher in lying for the Sicarians". The phrase as a whole has no parallel in Josephus.
F a form talēthē, in the sense of "the truth," is found only here and in Antiquities 8.23.
F>Th perhaps "truth" (τἀληθῆ) be emended to "the unusual" (τἀήθη), which, indeed, is palaeographically very close to the manuscripts; but, we may note, the word ἀήθῆς is not characteristic of the writer (or assistant) of this part of the "Antiquities', occurring nowhere after Book 13.
PB hêdonê dechesthai appears several times – as often as in Ant. 17.329; 18.6. 59. 70. 236. However, in most of these cases, the expression is used negatively about the gullibility of people. The word talêthê appears 9 times in Josephus and always with a positive connotation. As might be expected, the entire phrase has no parallel in the rest of Josephus' works.
F>Th (ἠδονῇ) is characteristic of the scribe in this part of the "Antiquities', since we find the phrase eight times in Books 17-19.. and nowhere else in Josephus.
NB Eisler argued that the phrase "those who accept the truth gladly" (τῶν ἠδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων) could not be authentically Josephan.

the adjective ἀληθῆς.. The plural with the definite article is found five times; only once does it carry the abstract sense of "the truth"; usually it refers to the concrete or objective truth of a statement or a report about a man's character.

f.
and he attracted many Jews as well as many of the Greek [way].
καὶ πολλοὺς μὲν ᾿Ιουδαίους, πολλοὺς δὲ καὶ τοῦ ῾Ελληνικοῦ ἐπηγάγετο


F Hellēnikoū in the sense of "the Greek people" is used by Josephus only here and in War 2.268.

g.
This man was Christ.
ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν


F Those commentators who believe that the Testimonium contains interpolations point to this statement, Ho Christos houtos ēn (He was the Messiah), and contend that Josephus, as a Jew, could not have claimed that Jesus was the Messiah.
M This affirmation is difficult for several reasons. First, the word "Christ" (Greek christos) would have special meaning only for a Jewish audience. In Greek it means simply "wetted" or "anointed." Within the Jewish world, this was an extremely significant term because anointing was the means by which the kings and high priests of Israel had been installed.

But for someone who did not know the Jewish tradition, the adjective "wetted" would sound most peculiar. Why would Josephus say that this man Jesus was "the Wetted"?

Since Josephus is usually sensitive to his audience and pauses to explain unfamiliar terms or aspects of Jewish life, it is very strange that he would make the bald assertion, without explanation, that Jesus was "Christ."

h.
And when, in view of [his] denunciation by the leading men among us,
καὶ αὐτὸν ἐνδείξει τῶν πρώτων ἀνδρῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν


PB the complete phrase hoi prôtoi andres par' hêmin cannot be found in Josephus. The nearest parallels are ho archiereis par' hêmin found in Ant. 1.11 and 20.198.

i.
Pilate had sentenced him to a cross,
σταυρῷ ἐπιτετιμηκότος Πιλάτου


F Since [War 2.169–177 & AJ 18.55–89] focus critically on the activities of the procurator Pontius Pilate, we may wonder why Josephus, in recounting Pilate's putting to death of those who opposed him, omits in the War his crucifixion of Jesus, unless we regard this mention in the Antiquities as an interpolation.
PB The verb epitimaô is found 15 times in Josephus, usually meaning "sentence to"; for example, in Ant. 18.68 and 18.107. In most of these cases, this verb is constructed with the punishment in accusative and the sentenced person in dative, cf. Ant. 18.68. However, the construction found in Ant. 18.64 also appears in Bell. 2.183.

j.
those who had loved him at the beginning did not cease [to do so].
οὐκ ἐπαύσαντο οἱ τὸ πρῶτον ἀγαπήσαντες


PB pauomai occurs frequently in Josephus, but none of the examples identified by Martin (op. cit., p. 438), corresponds to Ant. 18.64, where the verb is used to mean "stop". [pauw = make/cause/bring to end]
NB Παύομαι is not found in the received text in accordance with Josephan usage; from the subject οἱ τὸ πρῶτον ἀγαπήσαντες must be supplied the action from which they desisted. While such a construction is known, it is not found in the works of Josephus. It is in any cases apparently relatively rare.

k.
He appeared to them on the third day alive again,
ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἔχων ἡμέραν πάλιν ζῶν


PB palin zôn cannot be found elsewhere in Josephus.

l.
for the divine prophets had announced these and countless other marvels concerning him.
τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μυρία περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια εἰρηκότων

m.
And even now [or: still to this day] the tribe of the "Christians"
εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν τῶν Χριστιανῶν.. τὸ φῦλον


F>Moreau notes that the phrase εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν (Ant. 18.64) is not Josephan but Eusebian and concludes that the passage is a total interpolation.
F "the tribe of the Christians,"... it is unlikely that Josephus referred to the Christians as a new nation, distinct from Jews and gentiles. The word "Christians" is found nowhere else in the works of Josephus. The phrase "tribe of Christians" is found twice in works of Eusebius and nowhere else in the works of earlier Christian writers.
M Josephus uses the word "tribe" (phyle) eleven other times. Once it denotes "gender," and once a "swarm" of locusts, but it usually signifies distinct peoples, races, or nationalities: the Jews are a "tribe" (War 3.354; 7.327) as are the Taurians (War 2.366) and Parthians {War 2.379). It is very strange that Josephus should speak of the Christians as a distinct racial group, since he has just said that Jesus was a Jew condemned by the Jewish leaders. (Notice, however, that some Christian authors of a later period came to speak of Christianity as a "third race.")
NB Some doubt has been cast upon φῦλον τῶν Χριστιανῶν, "tribe of Christians", by the American-Jewish scholar Solomon Zeitlin. He may well have been right to do so. Φῦλον is used once of a swarm of locusts, once of the female sex of which Queen Alexandra was a member. Otherwise its reference is to specific Gentile nations or to the Jewish nation. It carries, then, the sense of Christians as a specific tribe or nation, which reminds one of the notion in some apologetic works that Christians are a third race (γένος however, is the word used in the cases in mind). Zeitlin, in fact, alleged that the phrase φῦλον τῶν Χριστιανῶν is first found in Eusebius.

n.
named after him
ἀπὸ τοῦδε ὠνομασμένον


F the Testimonium, in stating that the "tribe of the Christians" is "so called after him" clearly implies that only the Christians are so called as the true followers of the Messiah Christos.

o.
has not yet disappeared
οὐκ ἐπέλιπε


M Notice further that the phrase "they did not cease" has to be completed by the translator, for it is left incomplete in the text; the action from which his followers ceased must be inferred from the preceding phrase. This is as peculiar in Greek as it is in English, and such a construction is not found elsewhere in Josephus' writing.
F In total, then, three phrases — "who wrought surprising feats," "tribe of the Christians," and "still to this day" — are found elsewhere in Eusebius and in no other author.

Enjoy (if possible)!
Last edited by spin on Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TF language issues

Post by mlinssen »

spin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:10 am I created a list of varous language issues noted about the Testimonium Flavianum from the following works for my own needs, ordering them as seen below, and I thought it might be of some use for forum members.

Texts used, preceded by letters used in the comments section below that indicate the source:

PB "Testimonium Flavianum", in Per Bilde: Collected Studies on Philo and Josephus, Becker et al. edds, 2016 Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 76-78

F "On the Authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum Attributed to Josephus", Louis H. Feldman, in New Perspectives on Jewish-Christian Relations: In Honor of David Berger, Carlebach & Schacter, 2012 Brill. 21-23

F>Th, F>Moreau, Feldman citing Thackeray, Feldman citing Moreau
Josephus and Modern Scholarship (1937-1980), Louis H. Feldman, 1984 Walter de Gruyter

M Josephus and the New Testament, Steve Mason, 1992 Hendrickson. 169-170

NB "The continuing enigma of Josephus's testimony about Jesus", Birdsall, J Neville, Bulletin of the John Rylands Library. 1985;67(2). 619-621

Antiquities of the Jews, 18.63-64 (AJ 18.3.3)
[translation: Mason]

a.
About this time comes Jesus,
Γίνεται δὲ κατὰ τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ᾿Ιησοῦς


F ginetai, grammatically a present-tense verb, While Josephus uses the historical present elsewhere to describe past actions, in this context the present tense is striking because it suggests that Josephus believes Jesus is still alive.
PB this expression rarely appears with a person as its subject and, when it does, it never appears with the meaning "come" or "appear".

b.
a wise man,
σοφὸς ἀνήρ


PB Sophos anêr is used in Ant. 8.53 about Solomon and in Ant. 10.237 about Daniel, whereas, in Ap. 1.236, it is used about the wise Egyptian prophet Amenophis (cf. Ap. 1.232). Otherwise, it is not used in Josephus.

c.
if indeed it is proper to call him a man.
εἴγε ἄνδρα αὐτὸν λέγειν χρή


F "If, indeed, one ought to call him a man" would seem to be a Christian interpolation, since it presupposes that Jesus was divine.
PB "[ei ge] is rarely written as one word."

d.
For he was a worker of incredible deeds,
ἦν γὰρ παραδόξων ἔργων ποιητής


F The word poiētēs (translated above as “one who wrought”), which is here used of Jesus' feats, is always used by Josephus to refer to poets and never with the meaning it has here.
PB poiêtês as it is used here – in this construction as "practice" or "perform" – has no parallel in Josephus but appears occasionally in the NT; for example, in Jas 1.22. 25, cf. Matt. 11.2; Jn. 5.20. 36; 10.38; 14.12 and 15.24.

Paradoxôn ergôn appears twice in Josephus, namely in Ant. 9.182 and 12.63. However, only the former text is a genuine parallel, as the expression used here is about the miracles of Eliah.
NB διδάσκαλος is used seventeen times and in about half the cases has the pejorative sense of teaching something bad; but in all but one case, when a genitive is found following the word, it defines the content of the teaching and not the recipients, as the phrase "teacher of those who accept the truth gladly" demands.

ποιητής.. elsewhere in Josephus the word always means "poet", never "one who does (something)."

e.
a teacher of those who accept the truth with pleasure,
διδάσκαλος ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἠδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων


F Although the word didaskalos is a common one in Josephus's writings, in all but one case (War 7.444), when a genitive follows the word it indicates the content of the teaching rather than the identity of the recipients of the teaching. Here, however, it indicates the identity of the recipients of the teaching.
PB Didaskalos anthrôpôn: The word didaskalos is not frequent in Josephus, where it appears 17 times, but it is only used once in the same way as in Ant. 18.63, namely in Bell. 7.444, where it is used negatively about the Roman governor in Libya, Catullus: "he was a teacher in lying for the Sicarians". The phrase as a whole has no parallel in Josephus.
F a form talēthē, in the sense of "the truth," is found only here and in Antiquities 8.23.
F>Th perhaps "truth" (τἀληθῆ) be emended to "the unusual" (τἀήθη), which, indeed, is palaeographically very close to the manuscripts; but, we may note, the word ἀήθῆς is not characteristic of the writer (or assistant) of this part of the "Antiquities', occurring nowhere after Book 13.
PB hêdonê dechesthai appears several times – as often as in Ant. 17.329; 18.6. 59. 70. 236. However, in most of these cases, the expression is used negatively about the gullibility of people. The word talêthê appears 9 times in Josephus and always with a positive connotation. As might be expected, the entire phrase has no parallel in the rest of Josephus' works.
F>Th (ἠδονῇ) is characteristic of the scribe in this part of the "Antiquities', since we find the phrase eight times in Books 17-19.. and nowhere else in Josephus.
NB Eisler argued that the phrase "those who accept the truth gladly" (τῶν ἠδονῇ τἀληθῆ δεχομένων) could not be authentically Josephan.

the adjective ἀληθῆς.. The plural with the definite article is found five times; only once does it carry the abstract sense of "the truth"; usually it refers to the concrete or objective truth of a statement or a report about a man's character.

f.
and he attracted many Jews as well as many of the Greek [way].
καὶ πολλοὺς μὲν ᾿Ιουδαίους, πολλοὺς δὲ καὶ τοῦ ῾Ελληνικοῦ ἐπηγάγετο


F Hellēnikoū in the sense of "the Greek people" is used by Josephus only here and in War 2.268.

g.
This man was Christ.
ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν


F Those commentators who believe that the Testimonium contains interpolations point to this statement, Ho Christos houtos ēn (He was the Messiah), and contend that Josephus, as a Jew, could not have claimed that Jesus was the Messiah.
M This affirmation is difficult for several reasons. First, the word "Christ" (Greek christos) would have special meaning only for a Jewish audience. In Greek it means simply "wetted" or "anointed." Within the Jewish world, this was an extremely significant term because anointing was the means by which the kings and high priests of Israel had been installed.

But for someone who did not know the Jewish tradition, the adjective "wetted" would sound most peculiar. Why would Josephus say that this man Jesus was "the Wetted"?

Since Josephus is usually sensitive to his audience and pauses to explain unfamiliar terms or aspects of Jewish life, it is very strange that he would make the bald assertion, without explanation, that Jesus was "Christ."

h.
And when, in view of [his] denunciation by the leading men among us,
καὶ αὐτὸν ἐνδείξει τῶν πρώτων ἀνδρῶν παρ᾿ ἡμῖν


PB the complete phrase hoi prôtoi andres par' hêmin cannot be found in Josephus. The nearest parallels are ho archiereis par' hêmin found in Ant. 1.11 and 20.198.

i.
Pilate had sentenced him to a cross,
σταυρῷ ἐπιτετιμηκότος Πιλάτου


F Since [War 2.169–177 & AJ 18.55–89] focus critically on the activities of the procurator Pontius Pilate, we may wonder why Josephus, in recounting Pilate's putting to death of those who opposed him, omits in the War his crucifixion of Jesus, unless we regard this mention in the Antiquities as an interpolation.
PB The verb epitimaô is found 15 times in Josephus, usually meaning "sentence to"; for example, in Ant. 18.68 and 18.107. In most of these cases, this verb is constructed with the punishment in accusative and the sentenced person in dative, cf. Ant. 18.68. However, the construction found in Ant. 18.64 also appears in Bell. 2.183.

j.
those who had loved him at the beginning did not cease [to do so].
οὐκ ἐπαύσαντο οἱ τὸ πρῶτον ἀγαπήσαντες


PB pauomai occurs frequently in Josephus, but none of the examples identified by Martin (op. cit., p. 438), corresponds to Ant. 18.64, where the verb is used to mean "stop". [pauw = make/cause/bring to end]
NB Παύομαι is not found in the received text in accordance with Josephan usage; from the subject οἱ τὸ πρῶτον ἀγαπήσαντες must be supplied the action from which they desisted. While such a construction is known, it is not found in the works of Josephus. It is in any cases apparently relatively rare.

k.
He appeared to them on the third day alive again,
ἐφάνη γὰρ αὐτοῖς τρίτην ἔχων ἡμέραν πάλιν ζῶν


PB palin zôn cannot be found elsewhere in Josephus.

l.
for the divine prophets had announced these and countless other marvels concerning him.
τῶν θείων προφητῶν ταῦτά τε καὶ ἄλλα μυρία περὶ αὐτοῦ θαυμάσια εἰρηκότων

m.
And even now [or: still to this day] the tribe of the "Christians"
εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν τῶν Χριστιανῶν.. τὸ φῦλον


F>Moreau notes that the phrase εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν (Ant. 18.64) is not Josephan but Eusebian and concludes that the passage is a total interpolation.
F "the tribe of the Christians,"... it is unlikely that Josephus referred to the Christians as a new nation, distinct from Jews and gentiles. The word "Christians" is found nowhere else in the works of Josephus. The phrase "tribe of Christians" is found twice in works of Eusebius and nowhere else in the works of earlier Christian writers.
M Josephus uses the word "tribe" (phyle) eleven other times. Once it denotes "gender," and once a "swarm" of locusts, but it usually signifies distinct peoples, races, or nationalities: the Jews are a "tribe" (War 3.354; 7.327) as are the Taurians (War 2.366) and Parthians {War 2.379). It is very strange that Josephus should speak of the Christians as a distinct racial group, since he has just said that Jesus was a Jew condemned by the Jewish leaders. (Notice, however, that some Christian authors of a later period came to speak of Christianity as a "third race.")
NB Some doubt has been cast upon φῦλον τῶν Χριστιανῶν, "tribe of Christians", by the American-Jewish scholar Solomon Zeitlin. He may well have been right to do so. Φῦλον is used once of a swarm of locusts, once of the female sex of which Queen Alexandra was a member. Otherwise its reference is to specific Gentile nations or to the Jewish nation. It carries, then, the sense of Christians as a specific tribe or nation, which reminds one of the notion in some apologetic works that Christians are a third race (γένος however, is the word used in the cases in mind). Zeitlin, in fact, alleged that the phrase φῦλον τῶν Χριστιανῶν is first found in Eusebius.

n.
named after him
ἀπὸ τοῦδε ὠνομασμένον


F the Testimonium, in stating that the "tribe of the Christians" is "so called after him" clearly implies that only the Christians are so called as the true followers of the Messiah Christos.

o.
has not yet disappeared
οὐκ ἐπέλιπε


M Notice further that the phrase "they did not cease" has to be completed by the translator, for it is left incomplete in the text; the action from which his followers ceased must be inferred from the preceding phrase. This is as peculiar in Greek as it is in English, and such a construction is not found elsewhere in Josephus' writing.
F In total, then, three phrases — "who wrought surprising feats," "tribe of the Christians," and "still to this day" — are found elsewhere in Eusebius and in no other author.

Enjoy (if possible)!
Excellent textual criticism; at the right level and with the right amount of details

1. One of these is impossible to have been written: ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν

Nowhere in any early text is the name written out in full, save for P72 (thanks Lane!) that dates from 3rd / 4th CE - I haven't checked with Church Father's MSS but even if they did, that would put Josephus at their level and well above the NT (and any alleged oral tradition).
It can only have said XS, yet it would be very interesting if it says xrhstos - and even xristos would be very revealing, as that would point to a 3rd / 4th CE interpolation

2. Likewise for εἰς ἔτι τε νῦν τῶν Χριστιανῶν.. τὸ φῦλον

This would make Josephus the first to mention "Christians", even before any Church Father? I'm unsure about the latter, Patristics aren't my area (not much is, to be honest)

Splendid work spin, very very enjoyable indeed
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Re: TF language issues

Post by Jax »

I agree with Martijn, very nice writeup spin! :cheers:
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Re: TF language issues

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:14 am 1. One of these is impossible to have been written: ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν

Nowhere in any early text is the name written out in full, save for P72 (thanks Lane!) that dates from 3rd / 4th CE - I haven't checked with Church Father's MSS but even if they did, that would put Josephus at their level and well above the NT (and any alleged oral tradition).
It can only have said XS, yet it would be very interesting if it says xrhstos - and even xristos would be very revealing, as that would point to a 3rd / 4th CE interpolation
The earliest Greek manuscript of the TF is Codex A from the 11th century (Ambrosianus 370 - Mediolanensis - F. 128). It has a NS, "christos" is not written out ("... ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ..."
CodexAJosAnt.jpg
CodexAJosAnt.jpg (8.57 KiB) Viewed 2094 times
.
Woe to the minuscles ;)
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Re: TF language issues

Post by Jax »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 1:29 pm
mlinssen wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:14 am 1. One of these is impossible to have been written: ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ἦν

Nowhere in any early text is the name written out in full, save for P72 (thanks Lane!) that dates from 3rd / 4th CE - I haven't checked with Church Father's MSS but even if they did, that would put Josephus at their level and well above the NT (and any alleged oral tradition).
It can only have said XS, yet it would be very interesting if it says xrhstos - and even xristos would be very revealing, as that would point to a 3rd / 4th CE interpolation
The earliest Greek manuscript of the TF is Codex A from the 11th century (Ambrosianus 370 - Mediolanensis - F. 128). It has a NS, "christos" is not written out ("... ὁ χριστὸς οὗτος ..."

CodexAJosAnt.jpg
.
Woe to the minuscles ;)
This would make sense if all of the copying of Josephus was done by Christians. Is IC treated as a NS also?

Also, could you please link me to the material?

Thanks

Lane
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Re: TF language issues

Post by MrMacSon »

spin wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:10 am
I created a list of varous language issues noted about the Testimonium Flavianum from the following works for my own needs, ordering them as seen below, and I thought it might be of some use for forum members.


Texts used, preceded by letters used in the comments section below that indicate the source:

PB "Testimonium Flavianum", in Per Bilde: Collected Studies on Philo and Josephus, Becker et al. eds, 2016 Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 76-78

F "On the Authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum Attributed to Josephus", Louis H. Feldman, in New Perspectives on Jewish-Christian Relations: In Honor of David Berger, Carlebach & Schacter, 2012 Brill. 21-23

F>Th, F>Moreau, Feldman citing Thackeray, Feldman citing Moreau
Josephus and Modern Scholarship (1937-1980), Louis H. Feldman, 1984 Walter de Gruyter

M Josephus and the New Testament, Steve Mason, 1992 Hendrickson. 169-170

NB "The continuing enigma of Josephus's testimony about Jesus", Birdsall, J Neville, Bulletin of the John Rylands Library. 1985;67(2). 619-621



This is terrific.

One v small thing I'd take issue with, which is why I left the texts used box above, is
b.
a wise man,
σοφὸς ἀνήρ


PB Sophos anêr is used in Ant. 8.53 about Solomon and in Ant. 10.237 about Daniel, whereas, in Ap. 1.236, it is used about the wise Egyptian prophet Amenophis (cf. Ap. 1.232). Otherwise, it is not used in Josephus.

I'm not sure "Otherwise, it is not used in Josephus" is necessary (or it could say, ""Otherwise, it is not used elsewhere in Josephus"), and I realise this would be an issue with an already printed book
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ken Olson
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Re: TF language issues

Post by Ken Olson »

This is an image of the Testimonium from Codex Ambrosianus (usually called Manuscript M for Milan), the earliest Greek manuscript (11th century) containing the relevant section of Book XVIII of the Antiquities.
Testimonium Flavianum from Codex Ambrosianus (M) - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) - Plate V  .png
Testimonium Flavianum from Codex Ambrosianus (M) - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) - Plate V .png (143.4 KiB) Viewed 2061 times
This from Plate V, between pages 58 and 59 of Robert Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931). You can download the whole book here:

http://www.christianjewishlibrary.org/P ... hJesus.pdf

Best,

Ken
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spin
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Re: TF language issues

Post by spin »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:45 pm This is an image of the Testimonium from Codex Ambrosianus (usually called Manuscript M for Milan), the earliest Greek manuscript (11th century) containing the relevant section of Book XVIII of the Antiquities.

Testimonium Flavianum from Codex Ambrosianus (M) - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) - Plate V .png

Ken
Gosh, this image requires a lot of adjustment to read.

There are some strange letter shapes for me. For example the only difference between mu and nu is that the mu links to the next letter, but the nu doesn't. The pi looks like an omega with a bar through the top. The kappa and eta seem indistinguishable, eg in the case of ellhnikou.

There are often no spaces to mark ends of words, so Per Bilde's comment about ei ge being written as one word doesn't seem to make much sense, especially when the ge is also attached to the an of andra.

And I note the abbreviated nomen sacrum (xs) for christos. Do all the Greek citations have that? It's a little strange in Josephus, especially when Jesus appears in full.
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Re: TF language issues

Post by mlinssen »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:45 pm This is an image of the Testimonium from Codex Ambrosianus (usually called Manuscript M for Milan), the earliest Greek manuscript (11th century) containing the relevant section of Book XVIII of the Antiquities.

Testimonium Flavianum from Codex Ambrosianus (M) - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) - Plate V .png

This from Plate V, between pages 58 and 59 of Robert Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931). You can download the whole book here:

http://www.christianjewishlibrary.org/P ... hJesus.pdf

Best,

Ken
Absolutely fantastic Ken, thank you very much. The URL didn't work for me until I edited your text, copied it, and pasted it in my browser, so here's the naked one:

http://www.christianjewishlibrary.org/P ... hJesus.pdf

[EDIT: same result, never mind. Likely some caching issue on my side]

Attached also the blow up of τῶν Χριστιανῶν - let me just be modest for a change and remark that it is most remarkable that it has a nomen sacrum for XS yet says τῶν Χριστιανῶν in full (and not even Xrestianwn or Xreistianwn, and we'll take it from there I suppose

Just can't resist dropping the word no-brainer though :facepalm:
τῶν Χριστιανῶν in Josephus? Impossible
τῶν Χριστιανῶν in Josephus? Impossible
20220124Josephus_Christians.jpg (321.58 KiB) Viewed 2031 times
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Ken Olson
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Re: TF language issues

Post by Ken Olson »

Testimonium - Codex Vossianus Gr. 72 - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) Pate VIII between pages 68-69.png
Testimonium - Codex Vossianus Gr. 72 - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) Pate VIII between pages 68-69.png (1.83 MiB) Viewed 2018 times
Here's another image of the Testimonium from Eisler's book (Plate VIII between pages 68 and 69). This is from Codex Vossianus Gr. 72. This version of the TF is generally not used by text critics to reconstruct the hypothetical original because it's been interpolated into a manuscript of the Jewish War, so it's useless for establishing the genealogy of the text. However, it is interesting if what you're interested in is scribal habits and nomina sacra. (The TF is above the crossed out passage).

Best,

Ken
Last edited by Ken Olson on Sun Jan 23, 2022 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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