Re: TF language issues
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:47 pm
This is another image of the Testimonium from manuscript M (Ambrosianus). Hopefully it's a bit clearer.
Best,
Ken
Best,
Ken
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Amazing Ken, I've been looking for these for quite a bit - my gratitude is enormousKen Olson wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:43 pm Testimonium - Codex Vossianus Gr. 72 - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) Pate VIII between pages 68-69.png
Here's another image of the Testimonium from Eisler's book (Plate VIII between pages 68 and 69). This is from Codex Vossianus Gr. 72. This version of the TF is generally not used by text critics to reconstruct the hypothetical original because it's been interpolated into a manuscript of the Jewish War, so it's useless for establishing the genealogy of the text. However, it is interesting if what you're intrested in is scribal habits and nomina sacra. (The TF is above the crossed out passage).
Best,
Ken
Well, I finally managed to read that in full, thanks to the very handy transcription plus explanation by spin - it is terrible handwriting to me, the first time I've seen something like this, and I'm really only used to Coptic and Christian 2nd-6th CE, round and about. This definitely seems to be 11th/12th from what I could quickly piece togetherKen Olson wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:45 pm This is an image of the Testimonium from Codex Ambrosianus (usually called Manuscript M for Milan), the earliest Greek manuscript (11th century) containing the relevant section of Book XVIII of the Antiquities.
Testimonium Flavianum from Codex Ambrosianus (M) - Robert Eisler - The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931) - Plate V .png
This from Plate V, between pages 58 and 59 of Robert Eisler, The Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (1931). You can download the whole book here:
http://www.christianjewishlibrary.org/P ... hJesus.pdf
Best,
Ken
If you have a manuscript to go with that I'd be sincerely delighted andrew - verifiable facts are all that matter. I know the ihsous in one MS, that of Joshua, but all I have is the transcription and it's supposedly only in the front page. There's a recent post to that out here and I'll look it up laterandrewcriddle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:04 am I may be misunderstanding the argument here but surely the original Septuagint before it was Christianized used Xristos in the full form and not as an abbreviation e.g. when translating Messiah as a title of the Davidic king ?
This usage would be earlier than Josephus.
I'm not sure if other posters are disagreeing with my claim about the original Septuagint usage or whether they regard it as irrelevant.
Andrew Criddle
Whether or not any surviving manuscript support my claim it is still highly likely. Are you suggesting that the original Septuagint used nomina sacra ?mlinssen wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:17 amIf you have a manuscript to go with that I'd be sincerely delighted andrew - verifiable facts are all that matter. I know the ihsous in one MS, that of Joshua, but all I have is the transcription and it's supposedly only in the front page. There's a recent post to that out here and I'll look it up laterandrewcriddle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:04 am I may be misunderstanding the argument here but surely the original Septuagint before it was Christianized used Xristos in the full form and not as an abbreviation e.g. when translating Messiah as a title of the Davidic king ?
This usage would be earlier than Josephus.
I'm not sure if other posters are disagreeing with my claim about the original Septuagint usage or whether they regard it as irrelevant.
Andrew Criddle
"Highly likely" is not very convincing really, and I'll just take it that you can't substantiate your claim, given the fact that you don't even know whether there is a manuscript that would support it, which can only mean that you have never even seen oneandrewcriddle wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:25 am Whether or not any surviving manuscript support my claim it is still highly likely. Are you suggesting that the original Septuagint used nomina sacra ?
Andrew Criddle