Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

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ABuddhist
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Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by ABuddhist »

By this, I refer to the fact that, as far as I know, all Christian leaders whose writings survive from the 2nd century CE were converts to Christianity from Greco-Roman religion - most notably Justin Martyr.

In making these conversions, they were embedding themselves within not only a new religion but also a new religious perspective based upon monotheism as presented within the Jews' scriptures and related writings.

Has anyone made any study about whether such a shift may have led them to misunderstand/misinterpret concepts within Judaism and/or Christianity in ways that born Jews (or Christians) would be unlikely to make?

I ask because I am aware of many errors in interpreting Buddhism that people (even some who present themselves as Buddhist authorities) who convert to it from Abrahamic religions make.

I am aware, of course, that talking about errors in religious understanding is a privileging discourse that elides the diversity of opinions within a religion about what orthodoxy is. But if 2nd century CE Christianity was shaped by people with fundamentally greco-roman religious backgrounds, I am interested in reading about how their reasoning affected their understanding of Jewish and Early Christian doctrines.
perseusomega9
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by perseusomega9 »

There's also a lack of children born into the religion until the late 2nd century.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by Ken Olson »

This isn't a full scale study, but may touch on the issue you are asking about:

Ian Mills, 'Pagan Readers of Christian Scripture: the Role of Books in Early Autobiographical Conversion Narratives', Vigiliae Christianae (2019) 481 - 506.

ABSTRACT:
Most scholars agree that “pagans” did not read Christian scripture. This critical consensus,
however, places inordinate weight on a decontextualized quotation from Tertullian
and neglects a body of evidence to the contrary. In particular, the role of books in early
autobiographical conversion narratives suggests that early Christian authors and copyists
could sometimes work with a reasonable expectation of pagan readership. Against traditional
notions of the restricted appeal and circulation of Christian literature, pagan and
Christian sources alike indicate that Christian writings found an audience among philobarbarian
thinkers and that certain Christians promoted their books in pagan circles.

Best,

Ken
ABuddhist
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by ABuddhist »

perseusomega9 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:47 am There's also a lack of children born into the religion until the late 2nd century.
What evidence do you have supporting your claim? Explicit claims, or absence of evidence?
andrewcriddle
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by andrewcriddle »

The statement of Polycarp at his martyrdom Fourscore and six years have I been His servant, and He hath done me no wrong. How then can I blaspheme my King who saved me? implies that Polycarp had been a Christian from childhood.

Andrew Criddle
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by ABuddhist »

andrewcriddle wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:16 am The statement of Polycarp at his martyrdom Fourscore and six years have I been His servant, and He hath done me no wrong. How then can I blaspheme my King who saved me? implies that Polycarp had been a Christian from childhood.

Andrew Criddle
Leaving aside issues related to how honest such a claim was - and it may have been, for all that I know, although this forum and vridar have taught me to question such claims in many ways - how typical of second century Christian leaders' surviving writings were such claims?
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Jagd
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by Jagd »

It is striking that all the major early Christian figures were from Greco-Roman backgrounds, and that the Gospels themselves betray a misunderstanding of Judaism, Jerusalem, and Temple activity. IMO this (and many other points of evidence) suggest an Alexandrian origin of Christianity, where one could read the Septuagint to write in scriptural quotes and parallels without being raised within Judaism. The massive Judaic population of Alexandria also makes the religion exceedingly familiar for an otherwise largely Hellenistic city. The fact that all the texts we have are Greek (and are possibly based on the Septuagint) isn't something to overlook.

In fact, the historicity of the "earliest" Christians of Judaic backgrounds (Peter, Saul/Paul, John, etc.) may be blurrier than even us here can imagine, and I'm highly doubtful that these figures wrote anything down. Also, Paul's mini-biography (that comes out of nowhere) appears like a convenient way to assert his Judaic authenticity. In fact, the only other major Jewish author of this era is Josephus, a Hellenized Jewish individual who also wrote in Greek.
Ken Olson wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:58 am
ABSTRACT:
[...]
Against traditional notions of the restricted appeal and circulation of Christian literature, pagan and
Christian sources alike indicate that Christian writings found an audience among philobarbarian
thinkers and that certain Christians promoted their books in pagan circles.

This appears to be a part of the essence of earliest Christianity: a philobarbarian thrill in an exotic Hebrew-Hellenistic mystery religion, with more and more Hebrew scripture added until the thing starts turning into a new Judaism.
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mlinssen
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by mlinssen »

Jagd wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:47 pm It is striking that all the major early Christian figures were from Greco-Roman backgrounds, and that the Gospels themselves betray a misunderstanding of Judaism, Jerusalem, and Temple activity. IMO this (and many other points of evidence) suggest an Alexandrian origin of Christianity, where one could read the Septuagint to write in scriptural quotes and parallels without being raised within Judaism. The massive Judaic population of Alexandria also makes the religion exceedingly familiar for an otherwise largely Hellenistic city. The fact that all the texts we have are Greek (and are possibly based on the Septuagint) isn't something to overlook.

In fact, the historicity of the "earliest" Christians of Judaic backgrounds (Peter, Saul/Paul, John, etc.) may be blurrier than even us here can imagine, and I'm highly doubtful that these figures wrote anything down. Also, Paul's mini-biography (that comes out of nowhere) appears like a convenient way to assert his Judaic authenticity. In fact, the only other major Jewish author of this era is Josephus, a Hellenized Jewish individual who also wrote in Greek.
If everyone, or even a small minority, were as observant as you then this entire charade world have been over centuries ago already.
Yes, yes and yes: it all originated in Egypt, and it can't come as a surprise that all texts are found there as well

And don't forget the roman loanwords, of which using flagellum ONLY for the crucifixion is very telling: flagellum is used for the actual event itself, whereas the native Greek mastigo is used for its predictions: we clearly have a main story here that is dictated by Romans, upon which it is pieced together by Greeks

And Josephus - he writes tons of pages on a people that isn't famous for anything but being a bunch of losers, kicked around for centuries by everyone else. A people without culture, without architecture, without documentation, without libraries - all they have is grand stories from the past with nothing to demonstrate for, they are mere visitors in their own country

Check out

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/p ... 086/471885

the Hebrews did not change, except in rare instances, the names of the cities of Palestine.2 New cities also were not founded by the children of Israel.

It really appears as if they looked for an utterly insignificant country that hadn't been written about and had no identity itself. Gmirkin is spot on with his 250 BCE at the earliest for the Tanakh being composed but it may well be even later than that before it got completed as a collection. I think that the Septuagint didn't come into being until instigated by these same Greco-Romans, and it would be interesting to look for Roman loanwords in the Septuagint
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Jagd
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by Jagd »

mlinssen wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:54 am If everyone, or even a small minority, were as observant as you then this entire charade world have been over centuries ago already.
Yes, yes and yes: it all originated in Egypt, and it can't come as a surprise that all texts are found there as well
Thank you Martijn, that means a lot. I've been keeping up with your crucifixion/impalement work and it's quite convincing - the barebones 'passion' story appears to have been gloomy and quick, probably only a stout pericope long.

Also interesting how Josephus's accounts of the ancient history of the Judaeans is significantly different from the origin stories in the Torah - it appears both come from the tradition of making up extravagant origins in order to make one's obscure tribe relevant. If the Septuagint (and Tanakh in general) had its origin in Greco-Roman Alexandria, I wouldn't be surprised if they deviced the extraordinary origin stories of their people for exactly that purpose (copy-pasting as many other legends and myths as they can).

Even Philo is famous for trying to make Judaism relevant to Hellenic philosophy and mysticism. It's no wonder that Christianity would emerge and be adopted by non-Judaeans, since it appears Alexandrian Judaism was shaped to be relevant with the larger Eastern Mediterranean cultures (what is Moses but the Judaean mimicry of the Hellenic philosopher-sage, but one that affirms their tribal laws?). Meanwhile, it appears all that was going on in Judaea was the Temple activity alongside rebellions and that's that. I wouldn't be surprised if the stories of the Septuagint-Tanakh would've been utterly unknown to the native Judaeans.
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Re: Has Anyone Written anything about the Convert-Backgrounds of 2nd Century Christian Leaders?

Post by mlinssen »

Jagd wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:52 am
Also interesting how Josephus's accounts of the ancient history of the Judaeans is significantly different from the origin stories in the Torah - it appears both come from the tradition of making up extravagant origins in order to make one's obscure tribe relevant. If the Septuagint (and Tanakh in general) had its origin in Greco-Roman Alexandria, I wouldn't be surprised if they deviced the extraordinary origin stories of their people for exactly that purpose (copy-pasting as many other legends and myths as they can).

Even Philo is famous for trying to make Judaism relevant to Hellenic philosophy and mysticism. It's no wonder that Christianity would emerge and be adopted by non-Judaeans, since it appears Alexandrian Judaism was shaped to be relevant with the larger Eastern Mediterranean cultures (what is Moses but the Judaean mimicry of the Hellenic philosopher-sage, but one that affirms their tribal laws?). Meanwhile, it appears all that was going on in Judaea was the Temple activity alongside rebellions and that's that. I wouldn't be surprised if the stories of the Septuagint-Tanakh would've been utterly unknown to the native Judaeans.
You're welcome Jagd.
Yes, Philo produces an excessive amount of volumes in a seeming void, and Josephus does so as well - if you like reading the latter I can recommend Steve Mason's PACE

http://pace.hypervisions.it/york/york/texts.htm

I have this little itch that Thomas is hinting at Judeans in logion 21:

ⲙⲁⲣ.ⲓ.ϩⲁⲙ said to IS: your Disciples resemble who? he said:
they resemble some young children that are visiting a field which theirs not is.
Whenever if they should come, the slaveowners of the field, they will say it: dismiss your field to us;
themselves they make naked of their presence outward to cause them to dismiss her to them and they give their field to them.

Therefore I say it: if he should understand, the slaveowner in house; he is coming, the man who steals, he will be awake prior to he comes and not permit him to excavate inward to his house of his reign-of king, that he carries his House-gear. - metamorphosis Yourselves However be awake at the beginning of the World, bind you upon your loins in a great Power So-that the Robbers will not fall to path to come toward you.
Since is Need, you look outward toward her; they will fall to her.
Let! him come to be in your middle, a human of Understanding; after that the Fruit split he came immediately, his sickle in his hand: did he cover him up.
He whom there are ears within him to hear, let! him hear.

I'm all in for crazy theories of course; if they lead to nothing then that's that, yet if they lead to something then... who knows

I wouldn't be surprised if the Jewish people originated from Egypt, and made up the grand stories to solidify their identity.
Does Thomas accuse the Judeans of invading a country that "theirs not is"? Chris Albert Wells has a compelling paper on the Abraham narrative being created after the Moses one in order to overrule it, and the entire discrepancies between Elohim and Yahweh, Samaria versus Jerusalem, the 10 commandments versus the 9 ones - there is feud from the very beginning of it all

Yet Thomas attests to taking the Tanakh seriously, he frequently refers to it and his "grapevine planted outside the Father (and being uprooted)" is a telling as his logion 46 where he praises Zedekiah for destroying the temple, Judea, and the entire kingdom - so perhaps the story was accepted and some of it even factual, who knows

There are some MSS on the Septuagint in Greek predating 100 CE, and I'm intend on laying my hand on them all - how much Septuagint has been handed down really, by when? The full versions all are marked all over with the Christian scribal habits such as the diaresis on the u and i, the apostrophe in between similar consonants, the line-ending superlinear replacing the Nu, and I really would very much like to see "a clean one", but all I have so far are scraps.
Justin Martyr accusing the Judaics of getting their parthenos wrong is hilarious of course, although perhaps merely a vain attempt at very crude rhetoric - but how very wrong could a Hebrew get a Greek translation, didn't they care how their beloved and sacred text "got out"?

So my primary goal is to find the earliest Greek Isaiah 7 there is, though I'm taking it very easy these days. I'm working on Philip in a very casual way and that's about it - although I'll always remain inquisitive / nosy

Akhenaten invented monotheism in 1300 BCE but it got killed really quickly, and Elohim with his plural masculine feminine form perfectly attests to the Egyptian basic concept of deity, who always travelled in pairs. There likely are dozens of books about the similarities between Egypt and Judaism, and Moses had some interesting spelling in the Nag Hammadi Library

Back to the topic: I doubt there was much to convert from for the early Chrestians in what perhaps was 100-300 CE: like you say, with only a temple in Jerusalem Judaism effectively limited itself to a local scope - but I know nothing of it all. I'm using these dates because there must be a reason why Jesus got retrofitted to the first CE, and as the only Christian argument is that of priority, so very evident in the dating game they play, it likely mainly is that.
Then we get the main texts which still say Chrestian, although it is very interesting that Bezae has Christianos in Latin

https://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-NN-00002-00041/756

versus Chreistianos in the Greek. Did the rebranding start with Constantine? When did Chrestianity start to get managed by the Romans? Were there ever any Jewish converts at all?

Philip speaks of "when we were Hebrews" just as he speaks of "when we were Chrestians" and I'm halfway transcribing the text; it'll be a few weeks before I can present even a half- decent translation but I'm keeping track of time spent, just to see what the effort involved is: I'm guessing 150-200 hours but with my current schedule that'll take a few months. But he's the best record we have, and the likelihood of it being pristine is very high.
He has a few names in it, perhaps those can be related to anything. It is fun how he explicitly points to the Greek using Christos - he really is the missing link

I'll be off for a while. Enjoy!
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