The gospels testify: Jesus did not die on a cross

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mlinssen
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The gospels testify: Jesus did not die on a cross

Post by mlinssen »

[Introduction: to clarify what evidently is myth about the alleged Jesus dying on an alleged cross. This is not about what did or did not actually happen, this is about the story that the primary witnesses all tell: what they clearly wanted to convey by what they wrote down (or what has come down to us in writing, to be precise)]

The final hours of Jesus

The Bible used is Berean Literal Bible, one that takes the Greek and translates it literally, or, as they say themselves "A word for word translation that takes the reader to the core of the Greek and Hebrew meanings".
The four Gospels that narrate the last hours of Jesus are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The relevant parts will follow, with emphasis:

The Gospel of Matthew

Matthew 27:31 And when they had mocked Him, they took off Him the robe, and they put His garments on Him and led away Him to crucify Him. 32 And going forth, they found a man of Cyrene, named Simon. They compelled him that he might carry His cross. 33 And having come to a place called Golgotha, which is called Place of a Skull, 34 they gave Him wine to drink, mingled with gall; and having tasted, He was not willing to drink it. 35 And having crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots. 36 And sitting down, they were guarding Him there. 37 And they put up over His head the written accusation against Him:
THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
38 At the same time two robbers are crucified with Him, one at the right hand, and one at the left. 39 And those passing by kept railing at Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, “The One destroying the temple and building it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, also descend from the cross!” 41 Likewise also, the chief priests with the scribes and elders, mocking, were saying, 42 “He saved others. He is not able to save Himself. He is King of Israel! Let Him descend now from the cross, and we will believe in Him. 43 He trusted on God. Let Him deliver Him now if He wants. For He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44 And likewise even the robbers, those having been crucified with Him, were upbraiding Him. 45 And from the sixth hour, darkness was over all the land, until the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” That is, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?” 47 And some of those who were standing there, having heard, began saying, “This man calls Elijah.” 48 And immediately one of them, having run and having taken a sponge, and having filled it with vinegar and having put it on a reed, gave Him to drink. 49 And the rest were saying, “Let it be. Let us see whether Elijah comes to save Him.”
50 And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit.

The Gospel of Mark

Mark 15:20 And when they had mocked Him, they took off Him the purple and put on Him His own garments. And they are leading Him out, that they might crucify Him. 21 And they compel one passing by, Simon of Cyrene, the father of Alexander and Rufus, coming from the country, that he might carry His cross. 22 And they bring Him to a place, Golgotha, which is translated, Place of a Skull. 23 And they were offering Him wine, having been mixed with gall; but He did not take it. 24 And having crucified Him, they also divided His garments, casting lots for them, who should take what. 25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him. 26 And there was the inscription of the accusation against Him, having been written:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27 And with Him they crucify two robbers, one at the right hand, and one at His left. 29 And those passing by were railing at Him, shaking their heads and saying, “Aha! The One destroying the temple and building it in three days, 30 save Yourself, having descended from the cross!” 31 Likewise also the chief priests, with the scribes, mocking among one another, were saying, “He saved others; He is not able to save Himself. 32 The Christ, the King of Israel, let Him descend now from the cross, that we might see and believe!” And those being crucified with Him were upbraiding Him. 33 And the sixth hour having arrived, darkness came over the whole land, until the ninth hour. 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” Which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” 35 And some of those standing by, having heard, were saying, “Behold, He calls Elijah.” 36 And one having run and having filled a sponge with vinegar, having put it on a reed, gave Him to drink, saying, “Let be; let us see if Elijah comes to take Him down.” 37 But Jesus, having uttered a loud cry, breathed His last.

The Gospel of Luke

Luke 23:26 And as they led Him away, having laid hold on Simon, a certain man of Cyrene coming from the country, they put upon him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And a great multitude of the people were following Him, and of women, who were mourning and lamenting for Him. 28 And having turned to them, Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never did bear, and breasts that never nursed.’ 30 Then ‘they will begin to say to the mountains, “Fall upon us,” and to the hills, “Cover us.”’ 31 For if they do these things in the green tree, what might take place in the dry?” 32 And two other criminals also were being led away to be put to death with Him. 33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right, and one on the left. 34 And Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” And they cast lots, dividing His garments. 35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also were deriding Him , saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ of God, the Chosen One .” 36 And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming near, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” 38 And there was also this inscription over Him:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the criminals having been hanged was railing at Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 And the other answering, was rebuking him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, that you are under the same judgment, 41 and we indeed justly? For we are receiving things worthy of what we did, but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” 44 And now it was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. 45 The sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in the middle. 46 And having called out in a loud voice, Jesus said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And having said this, He breathed His last.

The Gospel of John

John 19:16 So then, he delivered Him to them, that He might be crucified. Therefore they took Jesus. 17 And bearing His own cross, He went out to the place called the Place of the Skull, which in Hebrew is called Golgotha, 18 where they crucified Him, and with Him two others, on this side and on that side, and Jesus in between. 19 And Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross. And it was written,
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 Therefore many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, and in Greek. 21 Therefore the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but that He said, ‘I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written, I have written.” 23 Then the soldiers, when they crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was seamless, woven from the top all throughout. 24 Therefore they said to one another, “Let us not tear it up, but let us cast lots for it, whose it will be,” that Scripture might be fulfilled that said: “They divided My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast a lot.” So indeed the soldiers did these things. 25 Now His mother, and the sister of His mother, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene, had been standing by the cross of Jesus. 26 Therefore Jesus, having seen His mother and the disciple whom He loved standing by, says to His mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” 27 Then He says to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her to the own. 28 After this, Jesus, knowing that now all things had been accomplished, so that Scripture might be fulfilled, says, “I thirst.” 29 A vessel full of sour wine had been set there . So having put on a stalk of hyssop a sponge filled with sour wine, they brought it to the mouth. 30 Therefore when Jesus took the sour wine, He said “It has been finished.” And having bowed the head, He yielded up the spirit.

The (dis)agreements among the four Gospels

There are minor differences among the four Gospels with regards to the emphasised parts:
• Jesus is led away to be crucified;
• he is crucified;
• a time is mentioned;
• another time is mentioned;
• Jesus speaks / cries;
• and dies.
Crucial to the narrative are the moment in which Jesus is crucified, the two times, and the last act of Jesus, followed by his death. Those five points will be summarised in a condensed version for each Gospel:

Matthew
27:35 And having crucified Him, they divided His garments, casting lots.
45 And from the sixth hour, darkness was over all the land, until the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” That is, “My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?”
50 And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit.

Jesus is crucified at an unmentioned time, but it is certain that at least three hours pass. When Jesus cries out in a loud voice 'about the ninth hour' immediately someone fills a sponge with vinegar and offers it for Jesus to drink, after which Jesus again cries in a loud voice, and dies.

Mark
15:24 And having crucified Him, they also divided His garments, casting lots for them, who should take what.
25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified Him.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” Which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
37 But Jesus, having uttered a loud cry, breathed His last.

Jesus is crucified at the third hour, and exactly six hours later Jesus cries out in a loud voice. Someone fills a sponge with vinegar and offers it for Jesus to drink, but Jesus (again) utters a loud cry, and dies.

Luke
23:33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right, and one on the left.
44 And now it was about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.
46 And having called out in a loud voice, Jesus said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And having said this, He breathed His last.

Jesus is crucified at an unmentioned time, but it is certain that at least three hours pass. When Jesus cries out in a loud voice around the ninth hour, he speaks, and dies.

John
19:18 where they crucified Him, and with Him two others, on this side and on that side, and Jesus in between.
30 Therefore when Jesus took the sour wine, He said “It has been finished.” And having bowed the head, He yielded up the spirit.

Jesus is crucified at an unmentioned time, and dies at an unmentioned time. He speaks, and dies

Although there are differences in the times mentioned, there is only a lack of agreement, and there is no disagreement: according to Mark, Jesus is crucified at the third hour and dies at the ninth hour. Darkness arrives at the sixth hour, which is the first indication of time mentioned by Matthew and Luke, and they also mention the last time of the ninth hour. John mentions no hour whatsoever, and the combined narrative could thus very well be that Jesus was crucified at the third hour and died six hours later.
With regards to the dying, there is major agreement among them all: Jesus cries out in Matthew and Mark (“Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” Which is translated, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”), in Luke 'calls out in a loud voice', and says 'I am thirsty' in John.
That is followed in Matthew and Mark by another crying out loud, whereas in Luke and John he speaks.
In all four Gospels, after Jesus cries or speaks one last time, he dies

Concluding this short summary, two major focus points draw our attention: Jesus spends (up to) six hours (and possibly more) on the cross, and cries or speaks a very coherent sentence right before he dies

The Church fathers

Where there is smoke, there is fire. Many Church fathers have written much about all of the Gospels, and more - but none of them ever made a case for Jesus being male, for instance. Yet many of them address 'the cross', of which to name a few: Tertullian in Ad Nationes Chapter 12, Irenaeus in Adversus Haereses Book II Chapter 24.4, and Justin Martyr, next to his elaborate address of corss/crucified in Dialogue with Trypho Chapters 40, 86, 89, 90, 91, 97, 103, 105, 108, 111, 131, 134, 138, addresses it in in his First Apology Chapter 35, and 55 - which is very interesting and to be picked as the single example out of them all (emphasis mine):

Justin Martyr, First Apology, Chapter 55. Symbols of the cross
... For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. And so it was said by the prophet, "The breath before our face is the Lord Christ". And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called vexilla [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished.

The emphasised part in Greek:

τὸ δὲ ἀνθρώπειον σχῆμα οὐδενὶ ἄλλῳ τῶν ἀλόγων ζώων διαφέρει, ἢ τῷ ὀρθόν τε εἶναι καὶ ἔκτασιν χειρῶν ἔχειν καὶ ἐν τῷ προσώπῳ ἀπὸ τοῦ μετωπίου τεταμένον τὸν λεγόμενον μυξωτῆρα φέρειν, δι’ οὗ ἥ τε ἀναπνοή ἐστι τῷ ζώῳ, καὶ οὐδὲν ἄλλο δείκνυσιν ἢ τὸ σχῆμα τοῦ σταυροῦ.

Oddly, the form that Justin Martyr is describing here is the staurogram: ⳨ - as if he were pointing to a written text, while trying to make a case for the cross: σταυροῦ - but let's not dwell on that.
Stauros: σταυρός, according to LSJ:

A upright pale or stake, σταυροὺς ἐκτὸς ἔλασσε διαμπερὲς ἔνθα καὶ ἔνθα πυκνοὺς καὶ θαμέας Od.14.11, cf. Il.24.453, Th.4.90, X. An.5.2.21; of piles driven in to serve as a foundation, Hdt.5.16, Th.7.25.
II cross, as the instrument of crucifixion, D.S.2.18, Ev.Matt.27.40, Plu.2.554a; ἐπὶ τὸν σ. ἀπάγεσθαι Luc.Peregr.34; σ. λαμβάνειν, ἆραι, βαστάζειν, metaph. of voluntary suffering, Ev.Matt.10.38, Ev.Luc.9.23, 14.27: its form was represented by the Greek letter T, Luc.Jud.Voc.12.
b pale for impaling a corpse, Plu.Art.17.

A stake? What is the word in the Gospels then? According to the Blue Letter Bible, it is exactly that, and occurs 27 times in the Textus Receptus as such:

σταυρὸν — 10x
σταυρόν — 1x
σταυρὸς — 1x
σταυροῦ — 12x
σταυρῷ — 4x

How about the verb, to 'crucify'? Likewise, https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... tter Bible, it occurs 48 times in the Textus Receptus:

ἐσταυρώθη — 5x Σταυρωθήτω — 2x
ἐσταυρωμένον — 4x σταυρῶσαί — 1x
ἐσταυρωμένος — 1x σταυρῶσαι — 2x
ἐσταύρωσαν — 7x σταυρώσαντες — 2x
ἐσταυρώσατε — 2x σταυρώσατε — 1x
ἐσταύρωται — 1x σταυρώσετε — 1x
σταυροῦνται — 1x Σταύρωσον — 4x
σταυροῦσιν — 1x σταύρωσον — 3x
σταυρωθῇ — 3x σταυρώσω — 1x
σταυρωθῆναι — 3x σταυρώσωσιν — 1x

One doesn't need to know Greek in order to see how this verb is formed of the same root as the noun: to stauros-ise would be a crude translation. Did Jesus perhaps die on a stake - that would explain the elaboration by Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian - among many, many others.
The ancient Greek writings all use it as a stake: Homer (Odyssey, Iliad), Thucydides, Herodotus, Xenopho (Anabasis) - yet that stake is a cross throughout the NT?

Fortunately, the Gospels testify to it all, and explicitly describe the manner in which Jesus died

The sudden death of Jesus

As summarised above, there are two striking features about the last hours of Jesus: he was crucified for a period of six hours as attested by Mark, and Matthew and Luke describe at least half of that period. And moments before his death, he cried out or spoke - in very lucid sentences.
And then suddenly, he dies - as if struck by lightning. If one wouldn't know any better, it would seem that someone delivered the coup de grace by shooting him through the head or the heart; it is that instantaneously:

(Matthew 27:50) And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit.
(Mark 15:37) But Jesus, having uttered a loud cry, breathed His last.
(Luke 23:46) And having called out in a loud voice, Jesus said, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And having said this, He breathed His last.
(John 19:30) Therefore when Jesus took the sour wine, He said “It has been finished.” And having bowed the head, He yielded up the spirit.

Four Gospels, four testimonies: and remember that in Matthew and Mark Jesus ousts the miraculous combination of Hebrew and Aramaic “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” just moments before.
What does one die of, suspended on a cross as we envision it today, with Jesus hanging on the crucifix - for at least 3 to 6 hours? Blood loss? Fatigue? No wounds are afflicted after the crucifixion, and the flogging that Jesus receives beforehand, is mentioned as an afterthought - but still, blood loss from flogging would be a primary suspect. Would there be any others? Pilate is even surprised in Mark, given his

Mark 15:44 And Pilate wondered if already He were dead. And having summoned the centurion, he questioned him whether He had died already. 45 And having known it from the centurion, He granted the body to Joseph.

Pilate likely wasn't an expert in the medical field, nor am I; but I do know that blood loss (and / or fatigue) leads to a slumbering death, slowly sinking into unconsciousness long before the heart finally stops beating. And that seems impossible to combine with being so very, very lucid only moments before death. What is perfectly feasible for such a scenario, is being impaled on a stake, likely in the abdomen or chest or perhaps even at another place, with the victim suspended on it and the stake piercing his body or even protruding from it - and then suddenly that stake penetrates the body just one more fraction of an inch, piercing a crucial organ.
Resulting in a loud cry, and sudden death

Aftermath

Whichever way one reads the Gospels, either Matthew came first or Mark did, yet both describe the exact same manner of death: a lucid sentence, cried out loud, likely in pain, followed by another loud cry, and instant death. And the rest is history, a history that was continuously being rewritten, but the texts that we have are clear: this is the way that Jesus died, and in all four cases it is immediately following a very coherent sentence spoken by someone perfectly lucid.
Why was the stake turned into a cross by the Church fathers, among others? At some point in time, the death of Jesus became more important than anything, or at least a very important aspect of it all - and depicting the death of Jesus, in writing or in symbolics, became a frequent exercise. And someone being impaled on a stake doesn't make for a great icon, it certainly isn't fine marketing material - so it simply had to change, the image of the icon had to change. It isn't until John that the word 'nails' appear, but those words are spoken by Thomas, and John doesn't have his Jesus say anything other than

John 20:27 Then He says to Thomas, “Bring your finger here, and see My hands; and bring your hand, and put it into My side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.”

From The Gospels testify: did Jesus die on the cross? (inc. Discussion content)
Last edited by mlinssen on Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The gospels testify: Jesus did not die on a cross

Post by GakuseiDon »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:12 pmWhat does one die of, suspended on a cross as we envision it today, with Jesus hanging on the crucifix - for at least 3 to 6 hours? Blood loss? Fatigue?
IIUC, it is fatigue. The person is suspended on the cross, with the feet resting on a small jutting platform (which I believe is what Justin Martyr refers to as the 'nose' of the cross) which is placed so that the person has to lift himself in order to breath. Eventually he tires, so can no longer lift himself and dies of asphyxiation. Usually it is a prolonged death, so in the story Pilate is surprised that Jesus succumbed so quickly.
mlinssen wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:12 pmPilate likely wasn't an expert in the medical field, nor am I; but I do know that blood loss (and / or fatigue) leads to a slumbering death, slowly sinking into unconsciousness long before the heart finally stops beating. And that seems impossible to combine with being so very, very lucid only moments before death.
It's more like slow strangulation, which tends to focus the mind and induce lucidity. (NOTE: I claim no personal experience on either side of that situation!)
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Re: The gospels testify: Jesus did not die on a cross

Post by GakuseiDon »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:12 pmStauros: σταυρός, according to LSJ:

"A upright pale or stake, σταυροὺς ἐκτὸς ἔλασσε διαμπερὲς ἔνθα καὶ ἔνθα πυκνοὺς καὶ θαμέας Od.14.11, cf. Il.24.453, Th.4.90, X. An.5.2.21; of piles driven in to serve as a foundation"
I've seen this argued before, that "stake" means an upright pole, as though it has no top. Yet many stakes have a large flat head on top so that it can be more easily driven into the ground. They are still called 'stakes'. There is nothing as far as I know that stops a stake to be shaped like a staurogram and still be called a "stake". That is, the word 'stake' covers more than just a pole-shape. Not that I know the possible variations of 'stauros', though Justin Martyr and Tertullian have their ideas. I take your point that they may have tried to fudge the shape for some reason.

Still, rather than the problem of 'stauros' being translated as 'cross' instead of 'stake', I suggest you have the opposite problem: taking the English word 'stake' and trying to apply it to 'stauros'. Just my 2 cents!
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Re: The gospels testify: Jesus did not die on a cross

Post by maryhelena »

For those interested here are the links to two books on crucifixion.

Image

here


Image

here

I understand that the article is endeavoring to highlight a stake rather than the cross as the instrument of execution - and that it is arguing from the gospels rather than how crucifixion might have been viewed in antiquity. Interesting.....

Whether stake or cross the fundamental point is elevation above the ground for the sinner i.e. that such a one is not worthy to have two feet on terra-firma. Hence, the sinner's humanity is degraded, cursed.

Consequently, cross or stake is only of concern as a technical matter not a philosophical or theological issue.

oh - and lets not forget George Wells:


George Wells: This Galilean Jesus was not crucified, and was not believed to have been resurrected after his death. The dying and rising Christ of the early epistles is a quite different figure, and must have a different origin. ...

In the gospels, the two Jesus figures -- the human preacher of Q and the supernatural personage of the early epistles who sojourned briefly on Earth as a man, and then, rejected, returned to heaven -- have been fused into one. The Galilean preacher of Q has been given a salvivic death and resurrection, and these have been set not in an unspecified past (as in the Pauline and other early letters), but in a historical context consonant with the date of the Galilean preaching.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/g-a-wells-holding/

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mlinssen
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Re: The gospels testify: Jesus did not die on a cross

Post by mlinssen »

GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:26 pm
mlinssen wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:12 pmStauros: σταυρός, according to LSJ:

"A upright pale or stake, σταυροὺς ἐκτὸς ἔλασσε διαμπερὲς ἔνθα καὶ ἔνθα πυκνοὺς καὶ θαμέας Od.14.11, cf. Il.24.453, Th.4.90, X. An.5.2.21; of piles driven in to serve as a foundation"
I've seen this argued before, that "stake" means an upright pole, as though it has no top. Yet many stakes have a large flat head on top so that it can be more easily driven into the ground. They are still called 'stakes'. There is nothing as far as I know that stops a stake to be shaped like a staurogram and still be called a "stake". That is, the word 'stake' covers more than just a pole-shape. Not that I know the possible variations of 'stauros', though Justin Martyr and Tertullian have their ideas. I take your point that they may have tried to fudge the shape for some reason.

Still, rather than the problem of 'stauros' being translated as 'cross' instead of 'stake', I suggest you have the opposite problem: taking the English word 'stake' and trying to apply it to 'stauros'. Just my 2 cents!
The thing is, the Church Fathers keep arguing for centuries that it is a cross, was a cross, really really honestly cross my heart and swear to die, and so on.
I'm not arguing for anything, I'm just sticking to the dictionary - and the texts. All of them testify to a stake - and nothing but a stake.
Sudden death comes from only one thing: a vital organ suddenly malfunctioning, instantly

And of course Jesus would make for an odd idol with a stake up his ass - the business case for the petty and fruitless arguments is obvious
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