Exploring the idea that Paul was a scamming cult-leader

[schillingklaus]

The property was supposed to be sold upon entering and then deposited to the feet of the apostles, akin to the command Jesus gives in the synoptic gospels to the rich young man who wanted to follow them.

There was, however, a gradual shift with the course of history. First step: homeless and property-less asket; second step: cenobite monk; third step: layman (like Jewish family man) giving alms, according to Jewish model; fourth step: layman sacrificing to God, following the example of Abel; fifth step: jesus is considered the ultimate sacrifice, superseeding all others. Of course, no phase had a clear-cut beginning or end but existed side by side.

This is reflected in the New Testament. So Acts 2:42 describes the worship style of cenobite comunities, 2:46 that of the Jewish family man giving alms and praying in the temple. Both styles were apparently commmon by the time of Acts and had to be justified as of apostolic origin.

The evolution of the Roman Catholic liturgy contains traces of this gradual shift. The basic layout of the Roman Catholic mass is a continuation of the style of Acts 2:42f: Reading of scripture and church tradition, consecration of donations made by the church and the believers, fraction/distribution of the holy bread, prayers for the sake of the active and the deceased members of the community.

Saint Peter calls the demeanour of Ananias, who shortchanged the community, an offense against the Holy Spirit. This proves that the community contributimg this pericope to Acts consecrated the donations of the believers using an epiclesis, i.e. an invokation of the Holy Spirit. This is the case in a few Greek anaphores; whereas the Roman Catholic Church (and many other Greek anaphores) consecrate with a reference to Genesis 4:4, Abel's offerings which were looked upon approvingly by God. (explicitly in the prayer Supra quae).

The Greek epicleses follow the example opf a variant on the Lord's prayer which commanded God to sent his spirit upon the believers, obviously (as it was cited as a reply to disciples of John) canditates for baptise.

As suggested by the synoptic story of the command to the interested rich young man, the donations were initially mostly made in money; but later, agricultural goods and work force prevailed.

In Supra quae, God is praised for having given life to the offerings, meaning that living animals were offered on the altar. AQ passage of the Apostolic Constitutions prescribes that cattle, poultry, and fruits of the acre were no longer brought to the altar but deposited with the priest/bishop; thence the bread and wine of the eucharist, as the ultimate sacrifice, were left as the only thing on the altar, so the consecrational prayers concentrate on them.

[davidmartin]

Both these 2 points could be true:
that Paul was a scamming cult leader and arch heretic to the previous communities he emerged from
and that he is the best witness we have to those previous communities

i think until scholars are truly able to embrace such opposite contradictory thinking little headway is going to be made in the search for the origins
what is needed is a scholar who is able to open a vast unexplored vista of virgin territory to work with, instead all we get is tired and empty ideas that require blind belief in order to accept them. the vast majority of scholarship is linear and limited in scope and unable to deal with the weighty topic before it

[Jax]

Both these 2 points could be true:
that Paul was a scamming cult leader and arch heretic to the previous communities he emerged from
and that he is the best witness we have to those previous communities

i think until scholars are truly able to embrace such opposite contradictory thinking little headway is going to be made in the search for the origins
what is needed is a scholar who is able to open a vast unexplored vista of virgin territory to work with, instead all we get is tired and empty ideas that require blind belief in order to accept them. the vast majority of scholarship is linear and limited in scope and unable to deal with the weighty topic before it

Something like this? https://www.richardcarrier.info/archive ... ment-32803

[Jagd]

Both these 2 points could be true:
that Paul was a scamming cult leader and arch heretic to the previous communities he emerged from
and that he is the best witness we have to those previous communities

The Pauline epistles really do require a lot of excavating and reverse-engineering in order to find the "Christianity" that Paul joined versus the "Christianity" he developed via his theological innovations. It appears that the crucifixion idea was popular in his era/area, perhaps also the eucharist, which appear to be hallmarks of a mystery religion and Paul's innovations were mainly focused on remolding this mystery religion into his personal ideal form of Judaism. Meanwhile, his rivals, (the so-called "Judaizers") were also incorporating Judaic traditions into this mystery religion, namely the tribal tradition of circumcision.

But the work is doubly difficult because it appears the contents of the epistles have been shuffled around and there may be way more interpolations than we think (along with the very real possibility that Paul is yet another legendary figure serving as an authoritative mouthpiece).

i think until scholars are truly able to embrace such opposite contradictory thinking little headway is going to be made in the search for the origins
what is needed is a scholar who is able to open a vast unexplored vista of virgin territory to work with, instead all we get is tired and empty ideas that require blind belief in order to accept them. the vast majority of scholarship is linear and limited in scope and unable to deal with the weighty topic before it

It appears that robust scholarship has been around for a long time (since the beginning, really), but hasn't been mainstream mainly because most Biblical scholars are Christians. There is now a huge portion of people who see right through the popular historical conceits., but if someone were to present all the common information that we talk about here in a concise, approachable work then I could see a huge turn in popular opinion.