Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Solo
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Solo »

Stephan Huller wrote:
Stephan, there was something really fishy going on with Mark in the old church.
Yes either Morton Smith was communing with Mark or he found an allusion to a lost version of Mark. But back to your main point, the earliest attestation (so Culpepper) of Mark being from the 72 disciples comes from Adamantius (De Recta in Deum Fide). With regards to the Greek text of the Panarion, your wish is my command:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Mig ... G%2041-43/

De Recta in Deum Fide can also be found at the same source - http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne - in Greek.
Thanks for the links, Stephan, most useful. The thing I found intriguing about the Epiphanius quote is that he probably has had some corrupted account of Mark that had him banished from some place and for some obscure reason and then rehabilitated by Peter and with his blessing composed the gospel using language that made it hard to read by the heretics. Hello ? Now, the supposed 'scattering' of the seventy (which had IIUC no basis in scripture - ie Luke - or traditions) Epiphanius says, was on account of their not heeding John 6:53, "except ye eat my flesh and drink my blood", which rephrases the familiar Johanine formula of the Word becoming flesh. Now, why would some in the church think Mark had problems with that, I wonder.

One possible clue is the Great Omission in Luke which excises Mark's Jesus going to the "other side" of the Sea of Galilee and the faith wonders he does among the Gentiles there. In my little theory, Luke was made to drop this part because it was deemed "too Pauline and spiritualist" and thus offensive to the Jewish part of his congregation (ie. the people querying Jesus in Acts 1:6) a contingent much bigger than that of Mark's (compare the frequency of "Israel" in Matt & Luke vs Mark). Unlike Matthew, Luke did not want to deal with the Pauline "spiritualist" controversy in the Sermon. He decided to manage the Paulinist content in the gospel story by reducing the "hidden Paul" in the gospel in favour of the "historically extruded" Paul of Acts.

So perhaps, the "spiritualist" interpretation of Mark left some trace still in the time of Epiphanius, a memory of a "corrected" Mark. The reprieve by "the holy Peter" I read as a way of remembering the later manipulations in the text of Mark to make it conform - to the extent possible - to the patristic canonical standard. Why was Mark included in the canon at all ? I think because it was the original gospel narrative, and the church needed to control the claim that the other gospels were but redactions of, and theological arguments with, heretical gnostic Paulinism advocated by the earliest story of Jesus. In short, Mark was fixed to conform - the Twelve converted to the twelve disciples of Matthew, and annex built that made Jesus appear to them - and then a tale was invented of Peter "supervising" Mark's creation.

Now, unfortunately, much as I would like to help you with Morton Smith I can't. I am convinced that the letter to Theodore is a modern fake, for a number of reasons that I think I have already discussed with you. The final straw that convinced me that Smith himself wrote the letter was Peter Jeffery's noting of the "seven veils" of secret in the letter is attributable to the Salome of Oscar Wilde. The way this error points to Smith himself is that he was evidently mixing up Salome, the femme fatale daughter of Herodias sister with one of the women so named who discovers the empty tomb. This is the kind of mental error which would be enough for any police cadet graduate to conclude that Morton Smith was making s**t up.

Best,
Jiri
Last edited by Solo on Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Stephan Huller »

Jeffery is nuts. There are better arguments against.
Solo
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Solo »

Stephan Huller wrote:Jeffery is nuts. There are better arguments against.
Like ? I do not know if you copy here, Stephan. Clement speaks of "seven veils of secret", which fits the "seven veils" of Salome the dancer in Wilde's play. He cannot know Wilde so this would be perhaps a coincidence if Smith did not offer his own two bits about "Salome" being the model disreputable woman in the Early Christian tradition. This shows Smith is not thinking about the Salome of 15:40 and 16:1 who was a member of Jesus entourage (who appears in the Secret Mark fragment) but the unnamed Salome of 6:21-29 the dancing daughter of Herodias responsible for the death of John the Baptist. This hugely improbable coincidence is hard to argue with and I am afraid calling Jeffery names will not do the trick.

Best,
Jiri
Stephan Huller
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Stephan Huller »

Like ? I do not know if you copy here, Stephan. Clement speaks of "seven veils of secret", which fits the "seven veils" of Salome the dancer in Wilde's play.

Whoopie shit. Seven was a sacred number. What because someone's allegedly a homosexual the only source they can draw from is Liberace, Ru Paul and Oscar Wilde? It's fucking retarded suggestion. Read Itter's book http://www.brill.com/esoteric-teaching- ... Alexandria clearly demonstrating the same idea is found in Clement's writings other writings. The fact that Origen mentions ten curtains is another irrelevancy (I am already seguing, anticipating Criddle's reply).
He cannot know Wilde so this would be perhaps a coincidence if Smith did not offer his own two bits about "Salome" being the model disreputable woman in the Early Christian tradition.This shows Smith is not thinking about the Salome of 15:40 and 16:1 who was a member of Jesus entourage (who appears in the Secret Mark fragment) but the unnamed Salome of 6:21-29 the dancing daughter of Herodias responsible for the death of John the Baptist.
Boy that's convincing. With this sort of logic you have a great future as a prosecutor in heresy trials in the Islamic court system. You start with an unsubstantiated sexual 'crime' and then move on from there. Seriously, why don't you re-present us with this 'smoking gun' evidence from Smith's own writings so we can all close the book on the 'forgery.' Let the forum see for themselves how the musicologist who sued the Smashing Pumpkins for playing too loud at a rock concert http://www.eonline.com/news/37821/prof- ... -ear-drums also 'cracked' the mystery of Mar Saba.
This hugely improbable coincidence is hard to argue with and I am afraid calling Jeffery names will not do the trick.
As I said show us the evidence and let everyone decide if the case is proven or not.
Last edited by Stephan Huller on Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Stephan Huller »

And what's a better argument? The colons (two dots) in the manuscript. It's hard to find evidence of that being used that way in contemporary texts. That's the best argument for something being fishy with the text IMO.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Stephan Huller »

Jeffery, who claims the ear plugs actually caused more harm because they dulled the pain while his ears were getting pummeled by "Cherub Rock" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," is also suing the manufacturer of the plugs, North Safety Products, as well as the Oregon catalog retailer who sold them to him.

The lawsuit charges that the bands' amps were definitely pushed to Nigel Tufnel's mythical "11" setting, far exceeding a "safe decibel level."

"There's definitely a breach of duty by either the bands or the coliseum, so I think we've got a good case," plaintiff's lawyer Anthony Wallace tells Reuters.
In 1997, Princeton University music historian Peter Jeffery attended what he said was his first rock concert - a show by the Smashing Pumpkins in New Haven, Connecticut. More than two years later, Jeffery sued the band, the city and New Haven Coliseum, claiming the excessive noise level damaged his hearing. http://www.pollstar.com/news_article.aspx?ID=488782
:confusedsmiley:
After the Associated Press first reported the suit in March, Jeffery received e-mails from Pumpkins fans calling him a “jerk" and “stupid.” http://books.google.com/books?id=3SFbAA ... 22&f=false
Stephan Huller
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Stephan Huller »

Here is a relevant section from Itter's book:
[Morton] Smith points out that kekalymmenes here translated as 'veils', is the term used by Clement to refer to the outer-covering of the tabernacle and also to the concealed nature of the books of the Stromateis. However, the seven veils mentioned here surround the inner sanctuary, the adyton, not the temple or the tabernacle, as a whole as mentioned in the fifth book. If the veils mentioned in the letter surround the inner and not the outer sanctuary then they equate with the seven stages of purification of which we have been speaking and which take the initiate fully into the Holy of Holies rather than the seven circuits which only take the initiate to the outer covering of the tabernacle. They constitute the last seven stages of the ascent and not the first as represented by the circuits. Strictly speaking the seven circuits do not represent the purificatory process of the gnostic or high priest, but the “barrier of popular unbelief," (Str. 5.6.33.3 - 4) which stands outside the outer covering of the tabernacle and which cannot, therefore, represent what is being called mystagogic in the letter [to Theodore]. The seven veils of the mystagogy refer more probably to the purificatory stage of Clement's soteriology, the holy septenary that leads to the ogdoad.

The confusion concerning the seven circuits and seven veils poses another interesting conundrum. If the letter is spurious, as some scholars believe, the author wrote it without the understanding that Clement distinguishes the inner sanctuary from the tabernacle as a whole, and that the seven circuits only lead to the outside of the whole structure. The letter concerning the secret gospel supports the internal evidence of the Stromateis without the supposedly spurious author knowing it. This would suggest authentic Clementine material. I suggest then that the last seven stages of Clement's soteriology constitute the mystagogy that is referred to in the letter concerning the secret Gospel of Mark. Clement tells us that the Saviour himself initiates us into the mysteries, and freely uses the language of the Greek mysteries to do so.48 Further evidence to confirm this position can be found in Clement's account of Genesis 22.3–4, Abraham's search for an altar on which to sacrifice his son Isaac. Clement allegorises the three days in which Abraham searched for the alter believing that the first day constitutes the sight of “beautiful things”, the second “the soul's best desire”, and the third when the “mind sees spiritual things” where the eyes of thought are opened by the Teacher (didaskalou) who rose on the third day. Clement proffers the idea that the three days may refer to the mystery of the “seal”, but he suggests that it is here that the soul sees the akolouthia which leads to the place that “contains all things universally” which Plato had called the realm of ideas. This begins the mystagogic stage of his ascent represented by Abraham being initiated (mystagogeitai) by an angel. This sequence would appear to correspond with the last phase of Clement's soteriological sequence. We can also note the role that angels play in this process and which also appeared in the description of the soteriological ascent to the Lord's mansion where souls become equal to the angels. (Str. 7.10.57.4 - 5).

The mystagogic sequence appears again in a discussion of the passage from 2 Corinthians 12.2–4 concerning the man who is caught up into the third heaven and who heard unutterable things. Clement suggests that this passage demonstrates the impossibility of expressing God. Yet he also suggests that if the man does begin to speak above the third heaven, which is usually unlawful, it becomes “lawful for those to initiate elect souls in the mysteries there." (Str. 5.12.79.1-2) This passage comes after a discussion on the incapacity of the multitude to “reach to summit of intellectual objects”.(Str. 5.12.78.1 - 2) According to Clement, only Moses can ascend the mountain and enter the thick cloud that surrounds God. The passage from Paul is placed within the context of Moses' ascent of Mount Sinai, demonstrating that the heavens of which the apostle spoke represent steps for initiating elect souls into the mysteries, just as Moses was initiated. It is only on reaching the third heaven that it becomes lawful for them to initiate the elect souls in the mysteries; that is, it is only in the third stage of ascent that the mystagogy begins. This agrees with what has already been posited of the soteriological sequence. After two saving changes, the ascent through knowledge that takes the soul to the ark constitutes the mystagogy of the third phase of Clement's divine pedagogy.

In summary, the seven days in which the high priest purifies himself and the temple prior to the Day of Atonement correspond to the mystagogy that prepares the soul for entering the ogdoad. In the letter concerning the secret Gospel of Mark this mystagogy is represented as veils of concealment surrounding the inner sanctuary of the written gospel itself. This mystagogic phase takes place at the third stage of ascent as Clement's interpretations of Genesis 22 and 2 Corinthians 12 demonstrate. The soteriological sequence consists then of three saving changes, the third of which is divided into seven mystagogic veils (kekalymmenes) importantly a term that Clement applies to the books of the Stromateis as well. Lastly, the ogdoad, or what Clement sometimes calls the Lord's mansion, is the culmination of the seven-fold mystagogy and is where the soul is free to to contemplate the ideas of God. For Clement's gnostic, this is analogous to the high priest viewing the contents of the ark.[Andrew Itter, Esoteric teaching in the Stromateis of Clement of Alexandria p. 45 - 47]
Is it really more likely that Smith, because he remained unmarried, drew from a noted homosexual than less flashy and salacious suggestion that the idea is wholly Clementine? I am sorry I don't see it. It's seems nutty and comes from old people who grew up thinking being gay is criminal. I'm sorry, I grew up in Toronto where my next door neighbor was a gay couple. I don't have these issues so typical for old men. Let the next generation decide this one.
Solo
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by Solo »

Stephan Huller wrote:
Jeffery, who claims the ear plugs actually caused more harm because they dulled the pain while his ears were getting pummeled by "Cherub Rock" and "Bullet with Butterfly Wings," is also suing the manufacturer of the plugs, North Safety Products, as well as the Oregon catalog retailer who sold them to him.

The lawsuit charges that the bands' amps were definitely pushed to Nigel Tufnel's mythical "11" setting, far exceeding a "safe decibel level."

"There's definitely a breach of duty by either the bands or the coliseum, so I think we've got a good case," plaintiff's lawyer Anthony Wallace tells Reuters.
In 1997, Princeton University music historian Peter Jeffery attended what he said was his first rock concert - a show by the Smashing Pumpkins in New Haven, Connecticut. More than two years later, Jeffery sued the band, the city and New Haven Coliseum, claiming the excessive noise level damaged his hearing. http://www.pollstar.com/news_article.aspx?ID=488782
:confusedsmiley:
After the Associated Press first reported the suit in March, Jeffery received e-mails from Pumpkins fans calling him a “jerk" and “stupid.” http://books.google.com/books?id=3SFbAA ... 22&f=false
Look, Stephan, I am really not interested in melodramas and character assassinations I actually wrote a sharply negative review of Carlson at FRDB, telling him that he damaged his case with a pointed "ad hominem" attack on Smith. So, I just go with what makes sense. And there is so much that does not add up around the "find" at Mar Saba that I simply set aside the Secret Mark discovery and will not touch it. Maybe one day the page will show up, the ink will be analyzed and it will be found that it came from 18th century, when the letter was transcribed. Then maybe we can have a conversation on whether anyone in 3rd century CE would have written ο δε νεανισκος εμβλεψας αυτω ηγαπησεν αυτον (Ιεσουν). But as things stand, it's not worth while to me.
Stephan Huller wrote:[Morton] Smith points out that kekalymmenes here translated as 'veils', is the term used by Clement to refer to the outer-covering of the tabernacle ....
Jeffery dealt with this in his book. He argued that neither Clement or any other ancient text Smith refered to spoke of the "seven veils" as protecting the Holy of Holies in the Temple.

Best,
Jiri
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DCHindley
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Re: Did Augustine credit Mark ending at 16:8 ?

Post by DCHindley »

Solo wrote:Clement speaks of "seven veils of secret", which fits the "seven veils" of Salome the dancer in Wilde's play. He cannot know Wilde so this would be perhaps a coincidence if Smith did not offer his own two bits about "Salome" being the model disreputable woman in the Early Christian tradition. This shows Smith is not thinking about the Salome of 15:40 and 16:1 who was a member of Jesus entourage (who appears in the Secret Mark fragment) but the unnamed Salome of 6:21-29 the dancing daughter of Herodias responsible for the death of John the Baptist. This hugely improbable coincidence is hard to argue with and I am afraid calling Jeffery names will not do the trick.
Actually, the text of the Clement of Alexandria's Letter to Theodore does not make any allusions to the physical temple in Jerusalem. It seems to allude to a figurative "inner sanctuary (αδυτον) of the "seven veiled truth" (της επτακις κεκαλυμμενης αληθειας, although Smith does not translate it so, see below).

In folio 1 recto:

Morton Smith's Greek via Ben C Smith's Text Excavation site
Morton Smith's Eng Transl from gnosis.org with minor changes to word order to better align with the lines of Greek text
25. πηγαγε λογια τινα ων ηπιστατο την εξηγησιν μυσταγωγησειν τους ακροα- 25 brought in certain sayings of which he knew the interpretation would, as a mystagogue, lead the hearers
26. τας εις το αδυτον της επτακις κεκαλυμμενης αληθειας• ουτως ουν- 26 into the innermost sanctuary of that truth hidden by seven veils. Thus, in sum,

This sounds like a technical term from circles influenced by Judean ascent mysticism.

Later in folio 1 verso, it says:

14. γελλει, Αποκρινου τω μωρω εκ της μωριας αυτου• προς τους τυφλους τον 14 advises, “Answer the fool from his folly,” and to the blind
15. νουν το φως της αληθειας δειν επικρυπτεσθαι διδασκουσα• αυτικα φη- 15 of mind the light of the truth should be hidden, as it is taught. Again

So, essentially, it is a mental state he is referring to, not a physical one.

Hippolytus, in Refutation of All Heresies V.2 (in other editions, V.7.22-24) says:
The [Naasenes] assert, then, that the Egyptians, who after the Phrygians, it is established, are of greater antiquity than all mankind, and who confessedly were the first to proclaim to all the rest of men the rites and orgies of, at the same time, all the gods, as well as the species and energies (of things), have the sacred and august, and for those who are not initiated, unspeakable mysteries of Isis. These, however, are not anything else than what by her of the seven dresses and sable robe was sought and snatched away, namely, the pudendum of Osiris. And they say that Osiris is water. But the seven-robed nature, encircled and arrayed with seven mantles of ethereal texture --for so they call the planetary stars, allegorizing and denominating them ethereal robes,-- is as it were the changeable generation, and is exhibited as the creature transformed by the ineffable and unportrayable, and inconceivable and figureless one.
Critics can indignantly snarl that this work was lost until a ms of books 4 to 10 was discovered in 1840 by M Mynas and the ms was published by B E Miller in 1851. Book one had long before been discovered in a 15th century ms and published by Fabricius in 1701, although mistakenly accredited to Origen of Alexandria. It was assumed, then, that Smith had taken this seven veiled truth from the 4th century bishop Hippolytus, instead of seeing this as a confirmation that such teaching about seven veiled truth was known at least a century or two after Clement of Alexandria's time.

However, this is not the only place we find this kind of thing. It is well known that Jewish ascent mysticism referred to "curtains/veils" (pargod?) that are at the gate of each heaven, generally enumerated as seven in number. I extensively treated this in a post to either IIDB or FRDB, but like an idiot I did not save a copy of it on my computer (or at least can't find it at the moment). So I go on to things I do have saved ...

In Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic texts of ritual power, by Marvin Meyer & Richard Smith (1994/1999), we have ancient Coptic magical spells:
70. Spell, with Gnostic characteristics, to protect from filthy demons
Text: London Oriental Manuscript 5987
Description- papyrus, 77 3/4 x 5 3/8 in. [unfortunately, undated]

Yoel Thiel Misiael Mioel Daithe Eleluth Ermukratos Adonai Ermusur, the invisible one within the seven veils, by him stand the seven radiant lights Sarthiel, Tharbioth and Urach and Thurach and Armuser and Eiecha, the seven inexpressible lights, the sixty golden lamps which burn in the tabernacle of the father.

You are Akramiel, Prakuel, the salvation of Israel. You are the salvation of the father. You are ..., the salvation of. . . . You are the father in whom . . . Ermukraton . . Ermusur invisible Bainchooch, O one within the seven veils.

73. Erotic spell of Cyprian of Antioch
Text: Heidelberg Kopt. 684
Description- book with sixteen pages of rag paper; the pages are 14.3 x 9 cm; pages 1-13 contain the spell of Cyprian, and the last three pages are blank; eleventh century.

According to legend, Cyprian of Antioch tried to employ magic [spells] in order to seduce a Christian virgin named Justina. As the story goes, he failed in his attempts, and so he converted to Christianity, abandoned his books of ritual power, and eventually became bishop of Antioch. Some traditions suggest that both Cyprian and Justina were martyred during the persecution of the Roman emperor Diocletian (ruled 285-305). The translation given here is of the spell of Cyprian. See also Howard M. Jackson, “A Contribution toward an Edition of the Confession of Cyprian of Antioch."

So I reproved my wrath [at not being able to seduce the Christian virgin Justina through his knowledge of magic spells], laid my anger aside, and allayed my rage with great humility. Then I got to my feet, turned my face to the west, stretched my right hand out to heaven, cleansed myself of the dirt on my feet, snorted, and directed these spells at heaven, to the tabernacle of the father within the seven veils.
In an essay entitled "Universal Fraternity of Universal Right of Oneness of Soulful Love and Compassion of all Living Beings Souls, as revealed and flourished by Arutperunjothi Ramalinga Vallalar," by Arul Thiru Gnanansabandram in Mettukuppam, Okkiyam Thuraipakkam (Tamil Nadu, India, 2006).
http://www.ambalamyoga.org/On%20Vallala ... 20file.pdf
In Vadalur [Tamil Nadu, India], Vallalar raised Sathya gnana sabha [Hall of True Wisdom Forum], where god is seen as grace light behind seven veils of ageless ignorance, each proclaiming a philosophy. Veil after veil, slowly unveiled, God’ glows in matchless sheen. Burning bright to keep in flight the devotee’s hesitancy and hug soul spark into his clasp.

Vallalar glimpsed divinity in vortex of mind, burning with leaping flames of million suns. Arutperum Jothi Vallalar alone revealed to the world, gods dazzling abode in the midst of consciousness. A quarter golden, the rest flaming white color of flag and seven veils behind light…
Arutprakasa Vallalar Chidambaram Ramalingam, 5 October 1823 – 30 January 1874, was a Tamil Holy man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramalinga_Swamigal

Later, in a court deposition filed in Small Claims court of Madras, India, around 1870, one of Ramalingam's disciples explains his contention that Ramalingam had foretold the establishment of The Theosophical Society. See H P Blatavsky, "Coming Events Foretold," The Theosophist, Vol. III, No. 10, July, 1882, pp. 243-244.
http://www.scribd.com/Athanor/d/3598070 ... 3#download
… During the latter part of his visible earthly career, he often expressed his bitter sorrow for this sad state of things, and repeatedly exclaimed: “You are not fit to become members of this Society of Universal Brotherhood. The real members of that Brotherhood are living far away, towards the North of India. You do not listen to me. You do not follow the principles of my teachings. You seem to be determined not to be convinced by me. Yet the time is not far off, when persons from Russia, America (these two countries were always named), and other foreign lands will come to India and preach to you this same doctrine of universal brotherhood. Then only, will you know and appreciate the grand truths that I am now vainly trying to make you accept. You will soon find that the brothers who live in the far north will work a great many wonders in India, and thus confer incalculable benefits upon this our country.”
To make the historical sequence clearer, is should be noted that Oscar Wilde's play Salome was published in 1891.

Blatavsky continued to use the phrase in "The Kabalah And The Kabalists", Lucifer, May, 1892:
Kabalah, as a word, is derived from the root Kbl (Kebel) "to hand over," or "to receive" orally. It is erroneous to say, as Kenneth Mackenzie does in his Royal Masonic Cyclopædia, that "the doctrine of the Kabalah refers to the system handed down by oral transmission, and is nearly allied to tradition"; for in this sentence the first proposition only is true, while the second is not. It is not allied to "tradition" but to the seven veils or the seven truths, orally revealed at Initiation.
I am not necessarily saying that the fragment could not be a creation of a later writer, as it was found handwritten in the endpages of a ragged printed book in one of the libraries of the Mar Saba monastery. Any one could have put it there, and if penned in relatively modern times the author was a mystic, more likely than not a Theosophist. As far as I know, and please correct me if I am wrong, Morton Smith did not seem interested in Theosophist, Kabalistic or even Jewish mystic ascent literature.

As long as we are going to "Round Up the Usual Suspects" (Casablanca), there were a number of well educated Theosophists at the turn of the 20th century. Why not pin the blame on someone like G R S Mead? But there is evidence that the concept of a kind of truth (mental, generally) hidden by veils of ignorance that need to be bypassed, goes way back in time. I do not detect any suggestion in this letter or in the "mystical gospel" (in Greek) of nuptial couches and such like erotic imagery that is sometimes found in the teachings of 2nd century gnostic sects (at lease as portrayed by Christian heresy hunters).

In fact, the author of the letter says that there isn't anything like that in the "real" mystical gospel secreted in the church Alexandria by its inner guard. I think that, like Morton Salt (which "pours when it rains," and is not touted as more pure than other brands of salt, because its anti-caking quality is due to the milling process, not due to additives), the offhand mention of Salome in folio 2 recto line 16 is a red herring. I mean, like the savor of salt in Mark 9:50 (ἐὰν δὲ τὸ ἅλας ἄναλον γένηται, where the letter to Theodore has "τουτο δη το λεγομενον, και το αλας μωρανθηναι, where the last word seems to be an Aorist infinitive of μωραίνω, meaning "to be silly, foolish, insipid, loose flavor," so the saying he refers to may not be the one from Mark 9:50), Salome is mentioned in canonical Mark 15:40 & 16:1. Why should we be suspicious that subjects and persons mentioned in canonical Mark also show up in this "mystical gospel"?

Ah ah ah! I think I've found the smoking gun! In 1917, a publication of the Pennsylvania Bureau of Foods found that Morton Salt, along a long list of other and quite varied foods, contained no adulterations:

http://books.google.com/books?id=iJ8mAQ ... ed&f=false

Now we can be certain that Smith not only had a copy of Hunter's fiction book about the Nazi plot to destroy established religion, but he also MUST have read this very publication about food adulterations publication.

As spin frequently says: "Rubbish!"

DCH
Steven Avery
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Mark's 14:28 and 16:7 - where is the Galilee fulfillment?

Post by Steven Avery »

Hi,

> JoeWallack
> .. Augustine's complaint is that 16:9-20 does not fulfill the critical Galilee predictions of 14:28 and 16:7. An Internal evidence fact acknowledged by everyone except for James Snapp.

Mark 14:28 (AV)
But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee.

Mark 16:7
But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee:
there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

Anybody who sees John or Matthew as preceding Mark will see no difficulty there, since the Galilee fulfillment was already published and available.

John 21:1
After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias;
and on this wise shewed he himself.

Matthew 28:16-20
Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In the Perspectives book, that would be David Alan Black, who emphasizes Matthew as first and he references some additional writers (putting aside late dating and other difficiulties.)

I've written on this for a number of years, both on the Messianic_Apologetic forum and in discussion with James Snapp.

================

Note: when I hit "quote" the text is there with the two tags, but it does not create a quote-box, as below:

[quote="JoeWallack"] Augustine's complaint is that 16:9-20 does not fulfill the critical Galilee predictions of 14:28 and 16:7. An Internal evidence fact acknowledged by everyone except for James Snapp ...[/quote]

================

Steven Avery
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