The nomen sacrum ΙΣ in Justin's Dialogue with Trypho 75

[Ken Olson]

I’m starting a new thread here on the nomen sacrum ΙΣ, or IS, or IC, as found in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho. I argue that there is very good evidence for the conclusion (in the vernacular: ‘we know’) that Justin did know that the name of the Christian savior was Ἰησοῦς, or ‘Jesus’ (i.e., the Greek form of the Hebrew name יהושע, ‘Yehoshua’ or ‘Joshua’) and that the nomen sacrum IS or (IY) found in our texts of Justin should be understood, at least in some cases and perhaps in all (I do not know of any counterexamples), to indicate the name Ἰησοῦς. I’m not going to address the larger issue of how the nomina sacra found in early Christian writings originated. I don’t know.

This issue has already been discussed on this forum and I weighed in here:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8807&p=131143&hilit ... us#p131143

In a discussion primarily with Chris Hansen, Secret Alias wrote:

(Now) that I am home let me show you what I mean.

Justin: Moreover, in the book of Exodus we have also perceived that the name of God Himself which, He says, was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob, was IC, and was declared mysteriously through Moses. Thus it is written: 'And the Lord spoke to Moses, Say to this people, Behold, I send My angel before your face, to keep you in the way, to bring you into the land which I have prepared for you. Give heed to Him, and obey Him; do not disobey Him. For He will not draw back from you; for My name is in Him.' Exodus 23:20-21

That's not Joshua. Yes a reference to Joshua is now found in the text. But Justin is connecting the name of the angel with IC not Joshua.

I've always argued that the present text of Trypho is corrupt. But here it is explicit and goes back to Marcovitch's corrections of the text as it is. A line is added to make it appear that Justin has two explanations "man" and "Jesus." But Jesus doesn't fit Exodus 23:21. The angel isn't named Joshua and there is no reason to think anyone ever thought that. The bit about the name of Israel that follows makes clear what Justin had in mind. Ish.

viewtopic.php?p=131235#p131235

Here is what immediately follows in Trypho:

Now understand that He who led your fathers into the land is called by this name IC

[The ANGEL from Exodus 23:21. Not the human Joshua. But someone adds now a line that doesn't fit the original argument:
and first called Auses Numbers 13:16. (Oshea).
An angel was never called Hosea and had his name changed. This is put there to make IC fit Jesus

Contrary to what Secret Alias asserts, there are very good reasons to think that some Christians, and particularly Justin and Tertullian, interpreted the word angel in Exodus 23.20 to refer to the prophet Joshua, Son of Nun. First, because Justin says so in the passage under discussion from Dialogue With Trypho 75, and, second, because Tertullian says so half a century or so later in a passage which Secret Alias also quotes in the same thread (chapter 9 of Adversus Judaios).
First, the passage from Justin's Dialogue with Trypho 75:

75.1 We know too that in the book of Exodus Moses likewise indicated
in a mysterious manner that the name of God himself
(which he says was not revealed to Abraham or to Jacob) was
also Jesus. For it is written thus: And the Lord said to Moses, say to
this people: Behold, I send my angel before your face, to guard you in
your journey, and bring you into the place that I have prepared for you.
Take notice of him, and obey his voice; do not disobey him, for he will
not pardon you, because my name is in him.
2. Consider well who it was that led your fathers into the
promised land, namely he who was first named Auses [Hosea],
but later renamed Jesus [Joshua]. If you keep this in mind, you
will also realize that the name of him who said to Moses, My
name is in him, was Jesus. Indeed, he was also called Israel. And
he similarly bestowed this name upon Jacob.
3. From Isaiah we know that the prophets who were sent to
carry his messages to man are called angels and apostles of
God, for Isaiah uses the expression, Send me. Equally evident to
all is the fact that he who was called by the name Jesus [Joshua]
became a prophet mighty and great

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho (2003) translated by Thomas B. Falls, revised by Thomas Halton, 117-118

Both the Greek ἄγγελος ‘angel’, and the Hebrew malak מַלְאָךְ֙, which it is used to translate, mean messenger, and, because the word is commonly used of God’s messengers in the bible, and those messengers are often heavenly beings, it can also have the derivative meaning of a heavenly being.

Justin is playing on the ambiguity of the word ἄγγελος in order argue, in the first place, that the ἄγγελος of Exodus 23.20 was indeed Ἰησοῦς, ‘Joshua’ (i.e., the prophet formerly known as Hosea), because it was he who led the Israelites into Canaan, and because it is perfectly appropriate to call one of God’s human prophets an ἄγγελος. This is why he says: ‘from Isaiah we know that the prophets who were sent to carry his messages to man are called angels’. Justin is saying that the prophet Ἰησοῦς (‘Joshua’) was the ἄγγελος who led the Israelites into Canaan.

The second part of Justin’s argument is a deduction about the Lord who spoke to Moses. To avoid confusion, Justin does not call the Lord an angel in Trypho 75 (though he does elsewhere), but ‘the Lord’ and ‘him who spoke to Moses’. The prophet Ἰησοῦς/‘Joshua’ is the only ἄγγελος in the text and the Lord says to Moses ‘My name is in him’. Therefore the Lord’s name is Ἰησοῦς (‘Jesus’). Justin has found the Christian savior in the Scriptures of Israel.

Tertullian makes essentially the same argument later in Against the Jews 9:

And accordingly it is agreed that the Son of God Himself spoke to Moses, and said to the people, Behold, I send mine angel before your— that is, the people's — face, to guard you on the march, and to introduce you into the land which I have prepared you: attend to him, and be not disobedient to him; for he has not escaped your notice, since my name is upon him. Exodus 23:20-21 For Joshua was to introduce the people into the land of promise, not Moses. Now He called him an angel, on account of the magnitude of the mighty deeds which he was to achieve (which mighty deeds Joshua the Son of Nun did, and you yourselves read), and on account of his office of prophet announcing (to wit) the divine will; just as withal the Spirit, speaking in the person of the Father, calls the forerunner of Christ, John, a future angel, through the prophet: Behold, I send mine angel before Your— that is, Christ's — face, who shall prepare Your way before You. Nor is it a novel practice to the Holy Spirit to call those angels whom God has appointed as ministers of His power. (Tertullian, Adversus Iudaeos 9) https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm

What Tertullian adds to the earlier argument is a further defense of the identification of the human prophet Joshua as an ἄγγελος. He points out that it is perfectly appropriate to call a human being whom God has appointed as a minister of his power an ἄγγελος as we can see from the fact that the gospels later apply the word to the human prophet John the Baptist (Mark 1.2, Matt 11.10, Luke 7.27, where the word is customarily translated as ‘messenger’ in English).

I imagine that contemporary Jews (and modern practitioners of the historical-critical method) would have considered Justin’s and Tertullian’s identification of the prophet Joshua with the angel as a spurious rationalization that misreads the Scriptures of Israel in order to find justification of Christian beliefs there. But that’s what Christian apologists do.

Best,
Ken

Note: I am not contesting that the early Christians interpreted the divine appearances in human form (using 'אִישׁ or 'a man' in the Hebrew Bible) as appearances of the person who would later be incarnated as the man Jesus. They did. Eusebius discusses these anthropomorphic appearacnes of Christ in the OT extensively in HE 1.2-4, which I’ve discussed on this forum before.

I am also not contesting that early Christian christology may have developed from earlier Jewish beliefs about a principal angelic mediator figure or second power in heaven. There is a considerable body of scholarly literature on this (i.e, angelomorphic christology) in the last twenty years or so and I think it’s likely.

I am contesting the theory that our manuscripts of Justin use ΙΣ to indicate the Hebrew אִישׁ ‘Ish’ rather than Ἰησοῦς. There is no good evidence for that, or at least I haven’t seen any on this forum yet.

[mlinssen]

Very interesting topic and assertion Ken.
A lot of text, English, Greek, Hebrew: can you make just a simple scheme for people like me who have a very short attention span?

ΙΣ -> -> ἄγγελος -> -> Joshua (in Greek please, plus MS source) -> -> Ἰησοῦς

As a reminder, Chester Beatty Biblical Papyrus V (TM 61934 / LDAB 3091 / Rahlfs 963 is a Christian text, not a trustworthy source. It may have set this in motion or it may have been forged the way it is in order to support it, but it doesn't predate Christianity it even Chrestianity

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8928&p=132096

Justin's convoluted naming game doesn't work for me, certainly not in English:

he who was first named Auses [Hosea],
but later renamed Jesus [Joshua]. If you keep this in mind, you
will also realize that the name of him who said to Moses, My
name is in him, was Jesus. Indeed, he was also called Israel.

[Secret Alias]

there are very good reasons to think that some Christians, and particularly Justin and Tertullian, interpreted the word angel in Exodus 23.20 to refer to the prophet Joshua

Some Christians did. No doubt. But that's not how any Jewish or Samaritans interpreted the text. I assumed and will always assume that Christians offer nothing of value to the exegesis of the Hebrew scriptures. Whether or not Justin did so is another issue and one we will can happily debate. But to make clear what I meant. I assume:

1. the Pentateuch and the Book of Joshua was written in Hebrew by writer(s)
2. who established a school(s) of exegesis
3. which were passed on to the priestly lines likely Oniad

This original understanding is what I consider to be the correct understanding. I don't know what the interpretation was. I am merely saying that we have to accept, intellectually at least, that there was a correct interpretation and that Joshua as the angel/messenger of the passage was not the original understanding.

What Justin believed, and what is reflected in surviving copies of the Dialogue, was - and is - another matter. But, it is at least possible, that because of his association with Samaria that his criticism of his Jewish opponent follows traditional Samaritan notions that the Jewish religion based in Jerusalem was a heresy. It's an unproven assumption. The present discussion and all discussions at the forum are little more than bavardage. I appreciate the time and effort we can spend discussing what Justin thought, and to what the text of Dialogue and the Apologies attest and what might have been there before the editorial efforts generally acknowledged to have existed at the time of Irenaeus transforming the surviving text (cf. Dunn, Craig Evans and countless others https://books.google.com/books?id=UL7CR ... ns&f=false). In this light the surviving Dialogue is a layered text edited at the time of Irenaeus. That Justin so often 'anticipates' Irenaeus might be less 'anticipation' as it is re-engineering.

All of this has little bearing on whether or not Justin acknowledged IC = man in Hebrew. It is a fun parlor game. Thank you for spending the time discussing this topic.

[Secret Alias]

Both the Greek ἄγγελος ‘angel’, and the Hebrew malak מַלְאָךְ֙, which it is used to translate, mean messenger, and, because the word is commonly used of God’s messengers in the bible, and those messengers are often heavenly beings, it can also have the derivative meaning of a heavenly being.

Yes Christians eventually learned to create their own interpretations of when messenger meant angel. But there are clear instances in the Pentateuch where malak was always taken to mean heavenly being. Justin seems to follow or know many of those instances. Maybe through Philo but also perhaps according his Samaritan ancestry/origins. We just don't know.

As a rule later Christian exegetes ignored Jewish traditions of exegesis and made up their own coded symbolism. It was far different originally among the earliest Christians including Justin. The principle of the IC = man understanding is that the 'man of war' in particular follows a firm 'identity' from Marcionites to Justin to later Christian exegetes and traditions (albeit through Psalm 24:8 because of deficiencies in the LXX translation). Justin's idea was that IC was disguised as a weak man. He was really the Biblical man of war. He disguised himself so that the Jews would crucify him. This was necessary so that the prince of hell/Sheol would admit him into the underworld where he would redeem the souls of the dead. The Marcionite tradition in Eznik is almost identical (save for the explicit identification of him as a 'man of war' but that is confirmed twice in Ephrem) only that Marcionites made the souls of the dead = the 29 generations from Adam to Moses. But the link between Justin and Marcion shows that the basic idea of IC = man was common to both and rooted in archaic and likely pre-existent Jewish/Samaritan exegesis of Exodus 15 where the man of war redeems and plants the souls of the Israelites in Paradise at the top of mount Gerizim.

Attestations for this ur-understanding of Christian salvation include Justin's writings, Irenaeus (especially the Defense), other Church Fathers including Tertullian, the Gospel of Nicodemus (especially the Descent into Hell), Ephrem, Eznik etc. Justin adapted the Marcionite understanding (which was likely rooted in the Hebrew text of the Pentateuch which they apparently preferred see Eznik's discussion of 'heaven of heavens') and developed a kind of 'opera' or dramatic retelling of Psalm 24 (where the words of the Psalm literally correspond to actions of Jesus descending into the underworld) which received its fullest development in the Gospel of Nicodemus. I don't think the man of war identity for Jesus depended on the Psalms. It was developed from Exodus 15 and finds support in Marqe the Samaritan exegete especially Books 1 and 2 of the Tibat Marqe.

[Secret Alias]

And so if Justin accepts that:

1. IC = man
2. IC = the man of war from Psalm 24

It is very unlikely that he understood the angel of Exodus 23:21 to = Joshua. The same angel man ate with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, guided Joseph to his brothers to be delivered to Egypt, spoke to Moses from the burning bush and was seen at Sinai, spoke to Joshua before the entry. That a text corrupted at the time of Irenaeus has attestations of another/other interpretations of scriptural passages which don't agree with this originally Marcionite understanding - and even obscure it - is hardly surprising. Forgeries, as you know, necessarily have motives and motivations beyond merely marking up paper.

[Secret Alias]

qv.

AND while Satan and the prince of hell were discoursing thus to each other, on a sudden there was a voice as of thunder and the rushing of winds, saying, 2 Lift up your gates, O ye princes; and be ye lift up, O everlasting gates, and the King of Glory shall come in.

2 When the prince of hell heard this, he said to Satan, Depart from me, and begone out of my habitations; if thou art a powerful warrior, fight with the King of Glory. But what hast thou to do with him?

3 And he cast him forth from his habitations.

4 And the prince said to his impious officers, Shut the brass gates of cruelty, and make them fast with iron bars, and fight courageously, lest we be taken captives.

5 But when all the company of the saints heard this they spake with a loud voice of anger to the prince of hell:

6 Open thy gates that the King of Glory may come in.

7 And the divine prophet David, cried out saying, 3 Did not I when on earth truly prophesy and say, O that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men.

8 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder. He hath taken them because of their iniquity, and because of their unrighteousness they are afflicted.

9 After this another prophet, 4 namely, holy Isaiah, spake in like manner to all the saints, did not

I rightly prophesy to you when I was alive on earth?

10 The dead men shall live, and they shall rise again who are in their graves, and they shall rejoice who are in earth; for the dew which is from the Lord shall bring deliverance to them.

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11 And I said in another place, O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?

12 When all the saints heard these things spoken by Isaiah, they said to the prince of hell, 1 Open now thy gates, and take away thine iron bars; for thou wilt now be bound, and have no power.

13 Then there was a great voice, as of the sound of thunder saying, Lift up your gates, O princes; and be ye lifted up, ye gates of hell, and the King of Glory will enter in.

14 The prince of hell perceiving the same voice repeated, cried out as though he had been ignorant, Who is that King of Glory?

15 David replied to the prince of hell, and said, I understand the words of that voice, because I spake them by his spirit. And now, as I have above said, I say unto thee, the Lord strong and powerful, the Lord mighty in battle: he is the King of Glory, and he is the Lord in heaven and in earth;

16 He hath looked down to hear the groans of the prisoners, and to set loose those that are appointed to death. 2

17 And now, thou filthy and stinking prince of hell, open thy gates, that the King of Glory may enter in; for he is the Lord of heaven and earth.

18 While David was saying this, the mighty Lord appeared in the form of a man, and enlightened those places which had ever before been in darkness,

19 And broke asunder the fetters which before could not be broken; and with his invincible power visited those who sate in the deep darkness by iniquity, and the shadow of death by sin. 3

CHAP. XVII.
1 Death and the devils in great horror at Christ's coming. 13 He tramples on death, seizes the prince of hell, and takes Adam with him to heaven.

IMPIOUS Death and her cruel officers hearing these things, were seized with fear in their several kingdoms, when they saw the clearness of the light,

2 And Christ himself on a sudden appearing in their habitations; they cried out therefore, and said, We are bound by thee; thou seemest to intend our confusion before the Lord.

3 Who art thou, who hast no sign of corruption, but that bright appearance which is a full proof of thy greatness, of which yet thou seemest to take no notice?

4 Who art thou, so powerful and so weak, so great and so little, a mean and yet a soldier of the first rank, who can command in the form of a servant as a common soldier?

5 The King of Glory, dead and alive, though once slain upon the cross?

6 Who layest dead in the grave, and art come down alive to us, and in thy death all the creatures trembled, and all the stars were moved, and now hast thou thy liberty among the dead, and givest disturbance to our legions?

7 Who art thou, who dost release the captives that were held in chains by original sin, and bringest them into their former liberty

8 Who art thou, who dost

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spread so glorious and divine a light over those who were made blind by the darkness of sin?

9 In like manner all the legions of devils were seized with the like horror, and with the most submissive fear cried out, and said,

10 Whence comes it, O thou Jesus Christ, that thou art a man so powerful and glorious in majesty, so bright as to have no spot, and so pure as to have no crime? For that lower world of earth, which was ever till now subject to us, and from whence we received tribute, never sent us such a dead man before, never sent such presents as these to the princes of hell.

11 Who therefore art thou, who with such courage enterest among our abodes, and art not only not afraid to threaten us with the greatest punishments, but also endeavourest to rescue all others from the chains in which we hold them?

12 Perhaps thou art that Jesus, of whom Satan just now spoke to our prince, that by the death of the cross thou wert about to receive the power of death.

13 Then the King of Glory trampling upon death, seized the prince of hell, deprived him of all his power, and took our earthly father Adam with him to his glory.

CHAP. XVIII.
1 Beelzebub, prince of hell, vehemently upbraids Satan for persecuting Christ and bringing him to hell. 4. Christ gives Beelzebub dominion over Satan for ever, as a recompense for taking away Adam and his sons.

THEN the prince of hell took Satan, and with great indication said to him, O thou prince of destruction, author of

Beelzebub's defeat and banishment, the scorn of God's angels and loathed by all righteous persons! What inclined thee to act thus?

2 Thou wouldst crucify the King of Glory, and by his destruction, hast made us promises of very large advantages, but as a fool wert ignorant of what thou wast about.

3 For behold now that Jesus of Nazareth, with the brightness of his glorious divinity, puts to flight all the horrid powers of darkness and death;

4 He has broke down our prisons from top to bottom, dismissed all the captives, released all who were bound, and all who were wont formerly to groan under the weight of their torments have now insulted us, and we are like to be defeated by their prayers.

5 Our impious dominions are subdued, and no part of mankind is now left in our subjection, but on the other hand, they all boldly defy us;

6 Though, before, the dead never durst behave themselves insolently towards us, nor, being prisoners, could ever on any occasion be merry.

7 ¶ O Satan, thou prince of all the wicked, father of the impious and abandoned, why wouldest thou attempt this exploit, seeing our prisoners were hitherto always without the least hopes of salvation and life?

8 But now there is not one of them does ever groan, nor is there the least appearance of a tear in any of their faces.

9 O prince Satan, thou great keeper of the infernal regions, all thy advantages which thou didst acquire by the forbidden tree, and the loss of Paradise,

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thou hast now lost by the wood of the cross;

10 And thy happiness all then expired, when thou didst crucify Jesus Christ the King of Glory.

11 Thou hast acted against thine own interest and mine, as thou wilt presently perceive by those large torments and infinite punishments which thou art about to suffer.

12 O Satan, prince of all evil, author of death, and source of all pride, thou shouldest first have inquired into the evil crimes of Jesus of Nazareth, and then thou wouldest have found that he was guilty of no fault worthy of death.

13 Why didst thou venture, without either reason or justice, to crucify him, and hast brought down to our regions a person innocent and righteous, and thereby hast lost all the sinners, impious and unrighteous persons in the whole world?

14 While the prince of hell was thus speaking to Satan, the King of Glory said to Beelzebub, the prince of hell, Satan, the prince shall be subject to thy dominion for ever, in the room of Adam and his righteous sons, who are mine.

CHAP. XIX.
1 Christ takes Adam by the hand, the rest of the saints join hands, and they all ascend with him to Paradise.

THEN Jesus stretched forth his hand, and said, Come to me, all ye my saints, who were created in my image, who were condemned by the tree of forbidden fruit, and by the devil and death;

2 Live now by the wood of my cross; the devil, the prince of this world, is overcome, and death is conquered.

3 Then presently all the saints were joined together under the hand of the most high God; and the Lord Jesus laid hold on Adam's hand and said to him, Peace be to thee, and all thy righteous posterity, which is mine.

4 Then Adam, casting himself at the feet of Jesus, addressed himself to him, with tears, in humble language, and a loud voice, saying, 1

5 I will extol thee, O Lord, for thou hast lifted me up, and hast not made my foes to rejoice over me. O Lord my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me.

6 O Lord thou hast brought up my soul from the grave; thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.

7 Sing unto the Lord, all ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness. For his anger endureth but for a moment; in his favour is life.

8 In like manner all the saints, prostrate at the feet of Jesus, said with one voice, Thou art come, O Redeemer of the world, and hast actually accomplished all things, which thou didst foretell by the law and thy holy prophets.

9 Thou hast redeemed the living by thy cross, and art come down to us, that by the death of the cross thou mightest deliver us from hell, and by thy power from death.

10 O, Lord, as thou hast put the ensigns of thy glory in heaven, and hast set up the sign of

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thy redemption, even thy cross on earth! so, Lord, set the sign of the victory of thy cross in hell, that death may have do minion no longer.

11 Then the Lord stretching forth his hand, made the sign of the cross upon Adam, and upon all his saints.

12 And taking hold of Adam by his right hand, he ascended from hell, and all the saints of God followed him.

13 Then the royal prophet David boldly cried, and said, 1 O sing unto the Lord a new song, for he hath done marvellous things; his right hand and his holy arm have gotten him the victory.

14 The Lord hath made known his salvation, his righteousness hath he openly shewn in the sight of the heathen.

15 And the whole multitude of saints answered, saying, 2 This honour have all his saints, Amen, Praise ye the Lord.

16 Afterwards, the prophet Habakkuk 3 cried out, and said, Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for the salvation of thy people.

17 And all the saints said, 4 Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord; for the Lord hath enlightened us. This is our God for ever and ever; he shall reign over us to everlasting ages, Amen.

18 In like manner all the prophets spake the sacred things of his praise, and followed the Lord.

CHAP. XX.
1 Christ delivers Adam to Michael the archangel. 3. They meet Enoch and Elijah in heaven, 5 and also the blessed thief, who relates how he cares to Paradise.

THEN the Lord holding Adam by the hand, delivered him to Michael the archangel; and he led them into Paradise, filled with mercy and glory;

2 And two very ancient men met them, and were asked by the saints, Who are ye, who have not yet been with us in hell, and have had your bodies placed in Paradise?

3 One of them answering, said, I am Enoch, who was translated by the word of God: 5 and this man who is with me, is Elijah the Tishbite, who was translated in a fiery chariot. 6

4 Here we have hitherto been, and have not tasted death, but are now about to return at the coming of Antichrist, being armed with divine signs and miracles, to engage with him in battle, and to be slain by him at Jerusalem, and to be taken up alive again into the clouds, after three days and a half. 7

5 ¶ And while the holy Enoch and Elias were relating this, behold there came another man in a miserable figure carrying the sign of the cross upon his shoulders.

6 And when all the saints saw him, they said to him, Who art thou? For thy countenance is like a thief's; and why dost thou carry a cross upon thy shoulders?

7 To which he answering, said, Ye say right, for I was a thief who committed all sorts of wickedness upon earth.

8 And the Jews crucified me with Jesus; and I observed the surprising things which happened

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in the creation at the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus.

9 And I believed him to be the Creator of all things, and the Almighty King; and I prayed to him, saying, Lord, remember me, when thou comest into thy kingdom.

10 He presently regarded my supplication, and said to me, Verily I say unto thee, this day thou shalt be with me in Paradise. 1

11 And he gave me this sign of the cross saying, Carry this, and go to Paradise; and if the angel who is the guard of Paradise will not admit thee, shew him the sign of the cross, and say unto him: Jesus Christ who is now crucified, hath sent me hither to thee.

12 When I did this, and told the angel who is the guard of Paradise all these things, and he heard them, he presently opened the gates, introduced me, and placed me on the right-hand in Paradise,

13 Saying, Stay here a little time, till Adam, the father of all mankind, shall enter in, with all his sons, who are the holy and righteous servants of Jesus Christ, who was crucified.

14 When they heard all this account from the thief, all the patriarchs said with one voice, Blessed be thou, O Almighty God, the Father of everlasting goodness, and the Father of mercies, who hast shewn such favour to those who were sinners against him, and hast brought them to the mercy of Paradise, and hast placed them amidst thy large and spiritual provisions, in a spiritual and holy life. Amen.

CHAP. XXI.
1 Charinus and Lenthius being only allowed three days to remain on earth, 7 deliver in their narratives, which miraculously correspond; they vanish, 13 and Pilate records these transactions.

THESE are the divine and sacred mysteries which we saw and heard. I, Charinus and Lenthius are not allowed to declare the other mysteries of God, as the archangel Michael ordered us,

2 Saying, ye shall go with my brethren to Jerusalem, and shall continue in prayers, declaring and glorifying the resurrection of Jesus Christ, seeing he hath raised you from the dead at the same time with himself.

3 And ye shall not talk with any man, but sit as dumb persons till the time come when the Lord will allow you to relate the mysteries of his divinity.

4 The archangel Michael farther commanded us to go beyond Jordan, to an excellent and fat country, where there are many who rose from the dead along with us for the proof of the resurrection of Christ.

5 For we have only three days allowed us from the dead, who arose to celebrate the passover of our Lord with our parents, and to bear our testimony for Christ the Lord, and we have been baptized in the holy river of Jordan. And now they are not seen by any one.

6 This is as much as God allowed us to relate to you; give ye therefore praise and honour to him, and repent, and he will have mercy upon you. Peace be to you from the Lord God Jesus

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THE BAPTISM OF CHRIST IN THE JORDAN. FROM A ''BOOK OF THE EVANGELISTS.'' GREEK MANUSCRIPT OF THE TWELFTH CENTURY.
Click to enlarge
THE BAPTISM OF CHRIST IN THE JORDAN. FROM A ''BOOK OF THE EVANGELISTS.'' GREEK MANUSCRIPT OF THE TWELFTH CENTURY.

[paragraph continues]Christ, and the Saviour of us all. Amen, Amen, Amen.

7 And after they had made an end of writing and had wrote in two distinct pieces of paper, Charinus gave what he wrote into the hands of Annas, and Caiaphas, and Gamaliel.

8 Lenthius likewise gave what he wrote into the hands of Nicodemus and Joseph; and immediately they were changed into exceeding white forms and were seen no more.

9 But what they had wrote was found perfectly to agree, the one not containing one letter more or less than the other.

10 When all the assembly of the Jews heard all these surprising relations of Charinus and Lenthius, they said to each other, Truly all these things were wrought by God, and blessed be the Lord Jesus for ever and ever, Amen.

11 And they went about with great concern, and fear, and trembling, and smote upon their breasts and went away every one to his home.

12 But immediately all these things which were related by the Jews in their synagogues concerning Jesus, were presently told by Joseph and Nicodemus to the governor.

13 And Pilate wrote down all these transactions, and placed all these accounts in the public records of his hall.

CHAP. XXII.
1 Pilate goes to the temple; calls together the rulers, and scribes, and doctors. 2 Commands the gates to be shut; orders the book of the Scripture; and causes the Jews to relate what they really knew concerning Christ. 14 They declare that they crucified Christ in ignorance, and that they now know him to be the Son of God, according to the testimony of the Scriptures; which, after they put him to death, they are examined.

AFTER these things Pilate went to the temple of the Jews, and called together all the rulers and scribes, and doctors of the law, and went with them into a chapel of the temple.

2 And commanding that all the gates should be shut, said to them, I have heard that ye have a certain large book in this temple; I desire you therefore, that it may be brought before me.

3 And when the great book, carried by four ministers of the temple, and adorned with gold and precious stones, was brought, Pilate said to them all, I adjure you by the God of your Fathers, who made and commanded this temple to be built, that ye conceal not the truth from me.

4 Ye know all the things which are written in that book; tell me therefore now, if ye in the Scriptures have found any thing of that Jesus whom ye crucified, and at what time of the world he ought to have come: shew it me.

5 Then having sworn Annas and Caiaphas, they commanded all the rest who were with them to go out of the chapel.

6 And they shut the gates of the temple and of the chapel, and said to Pilate, Thou hast made us to swear, O judge, by the building of this temple, to declare to thee that which is true and right.

7 After we had crucified Jesus, not knowing that he was the Son of God, but supposing he wrought his miracles by some magical arts, we summoned a large assembly in this temple.

8 And when we were deliberating among one another about

p. 90

the miracles which Jesus had wrought, we found many witnesses of our own country, who declared that they had seen him alive after his death, and that they heard him discoursing with his disciples, and saw him ascending unto the height of the heavens, and entering into them;

9 And we saw two witnesses, whose bodies Jesus raised from the dead, who told us of many strange things which Jesus did among the dead, of which we have a written account in our hands.

10 And it is our custom annually to open this holy book before an assembly, and to search there for the counsel of God.

11 And we found in the first of the seventy books, where Michael the archangel is speaking to the third son of Adam the first man, an account that after five thousand five hundred years, Christ the most beloved Son of God was come on earth,

12 And we further considered, that perhaps he was the very God of Israel who spoke to Moses, Thou shalt make the ark of the testimony; two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 1

13 By these five cubits and a half for the building of the ark of the Old Testament, we perceived and knew that in five thousand years and a half (one thousand) years, Jesus Christ was to come in the ark or tabernacle of a body;

14 And so our scriptures testify that he is the son of God, and the Lord and King of Israel.

15 And because after his suffering, our chief priests were surprised at the signs which were wrought by his means, we opened that book to search all the generations down to the generation of Joseph and Mary the mother of Jesus, supposing him to be of the seed of David;

16 And we found the account of the creation, and at what time he made the heaven and the earth and the first man Adam, and that from thence to the flood, were two thousand, two hundred and twelve years.

17 And from the flood to Abraham, nine hundred and twelve. And from Abraham to Moses, four hundred and thirty. And from Moses to David the king, five hundred and ten.

18 And from David to the Babylonish captivity, five hundred years. And from the Babylonish captivity to the incarnation of Christ, four hundred years.

19 The sum of all which amounts to five thousand and half (a thousand).

20 And so it appears, that Jesus whom we crucified, is Jesus Christ the Son of God, and true and Almighty God. Amen.

This is the original Christian myth. Long before Jesus was a man from Nazareth he was the 'man of war' who disguised his identity as the figure from Exodus 15 to go 'fool the rulers of the world' into crucifying him (1 Cor 2:8) in order to go into the underworld to redeem the 29 generations of souls before the introduction of the law. Justin subscribed to this adapted Marcionite myth likely accounting for why Irenaeus/Tertullian turns around a lost text(s) of Justin written 'against the Jews' and a gospel commentary into Books 3 and 4 of Against Marcion. In other words, there was commonality between Justin and Marcion in terms of IC = the 'man of war.' Moreover, when you really think about Justin's two advent system (which was passed on to Irenaeus/Tertullian) the underlying supposition is that IC = 'man of war' too. You know, who was glorious appeared meek, ugly, wretched only to re-appear later in 'full glory.' The Marcionite myth of Eznik has the exact same understanding. Marcion and Justin were very, very, very compatible. Undoubtedly why Tatian is 'encratic' and frequently referenced as a Marcionite or Marcionite-like.

All the business about Jesus, his mother, running away to Egypt - all of this - is a later invention. The core myth of the supernatural 'man of war' is core to the Jewish/Samaritan experience = the seder.

[Secret Alias]

Taylor points to the importance of Exodus 15 to the therapeutae https://books.google.com/books?id=Bjp7_ ... ae&f=false I think there is an Alexandrian origin for this understanding. But of course it is all speculation.

[Secret Alias]

https://books.google.com/books?id=GiboD ... er&f=false

when considering passages such as Exodus 15 , it is not unreasonable to assume that the Israelites would have expressed thanksgiving in some way . Philo , the Greek Jewish thinker from first - century Egypt.

They have also writings of ancient men, who having been the founders of one sect or another have left behind them many memorials of the allegorical system of writing and explanation, whom they take as a kind of model, and imitate the general fashion of their sect; so that they do not occupy themselves solely in contemplation, but they likewise compose psalms and hymns to God in every kind of metre and melody imaginable, which they of necessity arrange in more dignified rhythm. (30) Therefore, during six days, each of these individuals, retiring into solitude by himself, philosophises by himself in one of the places called monasteries, never going outside the threshold of the outer court, and indeed never even looking out. But on the seventh day they all come together as if to meet in a sacred assembly, and they sit down in order according to their ages with all becoming gravity, keeping their hands inside their garments, having their right hand between their chest and their dress, and the left hand down by their side, close to their flank; (31) and then the eldest of them who has the most profound learning in their doctrines, comes forward and speaks with steadfast look and with steadfast voice, with great powers of reasoning, and great prudence, not making an exhibition of his oratorical powers like the rhetoricians of old ... Then they sing hymns which have been composed in honour of God in many metres and tunes, at one time all singing together, and at another moving their hands and dancing in corresponding harmony, and uttering in an inspired manner songs of thanksgiving, and at another time regular odes, and performing all necessary strophes and antistrophes. (85) Then, when each chorus of the men and each chorus of the women has feasted separately by itself, like persons in the bacchanalian revels, drinking the pure wine of the love of God, they join together, and the two become one chorus, an imitation of that one which, in old time, was established by the Red Sea, on account of the wondrous works which were displayed there; (86) for, by the commandment of God, the sea became to one party the cause of safety, and to the other that of utter destruction; for it being burst asunder, and dragged back by a violent reflux, and being built up on each side as if there were a solid wall, the space in the midst was widened, and cut into a level and dry road, along which the people passed over to the opposite land, being conducted onwards to higher ground; then, when the sea returned and ran back to its former channel, and was poured out from both sides, on what had just before been dry ground, those of the enemy who pursued were overwhelmed and perished. (87) When the Israelites saw and experienced this great miracle, which was an event beyond all description, beyond all imagination, and beyond all hope, both men and women together, under the influence of divine inspiration, becoming all one chorus, sang hymns of thanksgiving to God the Saviour, Moses the prophet leading the men, and Miriam the prophetess leading the women.

The context of singing prayers in the context of Exodus 15 to 'God the Savior' would imply to the 'man of war' (even though this expression is not in the LXX). Clearly though the understanding is that what happened in Exodus 15 (= Moses and Miriam leading a two choruses) is reenacted by the Therapeutae in their remembrance of the event. We all know Eusebius has a source that these were the first Christians established by St Mark in Egypt. I am not asking for acceptance of Eusebius's conclusions only that uncanny similarities exist between this community and what we might suppose 'earliest Christianity' must have looked like. I think IC = man of war comes from this sort of a community. It is rooted in primitive Judaism/Samaritanism.

[Secret Alias]

My assumptions would be:

1. therapeutae-like veneration of 'man of war' during seder likely at Alexandria (but not necessarily Egypt)
2. adaptation of seder to envision appearance of 'man of war' at the time of Pilate disguised as meek man to die/be crucified to redeem the souls of the 29 generations before the giving of the Law = gospel narrative
3. Marcion myth reported in Eznik
4. Justin + two advent schema
5. Irenaeus (taken from Justin)
6. Tertullian (taken from Irenaeus)
7. the gospel of Nicodemus adapted some hybrid Old Latin/Marcion/Justin tradition

[Ken Olson]

I'm going to take a step back and copy my earlier post from the other thread to which I linked in the OP. Hopefully, this will clarify precisely what it is I am arguing.

Without IC actually spelled out in the early texts we will never know. It should be obvious that even as early as Justin, the meaning of IC wasn't known.

I think you meant 'even as late as Justin' the meaning of JC wasn't known. But I think the evidence is pretty good that Justin did know the name Jesus, and we can tell that even if it's not spelled out.

In Dialogue with Trypho 90, Justin refers to the passage about Moses and Joshua leading the Israelites against the Amalekites from Exodus 17.12-13:

Exodus 17.8 Then came Am′alek and fought with Israel at Reph′idim. 9 And Moses said to Joshua, “Choose for us men, and go out, fight with Am′alek; tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in my hand.” 10 So Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought with Am′alek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 Whenever Moses held up his hand, Israel prevailed; and whenever he lowered his hand, Am′alek prevailed. 12 But Moses’ hands grew weary; so they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat upon it, and Aaron and Hur held up his hands, one on one side, and the other on the other side; so his hands were steady until the going down of the sun. 13 And Joshua mowed down Am′alek and his people with the edge of the sword.

In Trypho 90.4-5, Justin says:

When the people waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave (Nun) by name Jesus (Joshua), led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross, the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses; but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionally defeated, and he who prevailed prevailed by the cross. For it was not because Moses so prayed that the people were stronger, but because, while one who bore the name of Jesus (Joshua) was in the forefront of the battle, he himself made the sign of the cross. For who of you knows not that the prayer of one who accompanies it with lamentation and tears, with the body prostrate, or with bended knees, propitiates God most of all? But in such a manner neither he nor any other one, while sitting on a stone, prayed. Nor even the stone symbolized Christ, as I have shown.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01287.htm

Justin's exegesis of the passage from Exodus depends on the knowledge that the son of Nun in Exodus and the Christian savior who died on the cross have the same name.

My point is that we don't need to begin with a theory about what the letters Iota-Upsilon (usually rendered 'Jesus' in English translations) in the Greek of Justin's Dialogue with Trypho 90 were meant to indicate. We can look at the manuscript of Justin's Dialogue with Trypho 90 where the letters Iota-Upsilon are used for a person in Exodus 17.12-13 and then we can look at the text of the Hebrew Bible for what the name of that person was in Hebrew. I'll do that in my next post.

Best,

Ken