Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:38 am Martijn,

can you report what prof Vinzent says about *Ev 20:1-4 ? How does he interpret it, if he mentions it in this book?

Very interested, thanks.

Mark provides the parallel to *Ev 6,18-22 in a somewhat later place in Mk 8,27-31, and also reproduces it largely verbatim, only sharpening it here at the end when he speaks of Jesus being killed by the elders, chief priests and scribes in addition to the suffering.
These three groups of authorities are also found in Mark's next encounter with John the Baptist (Mk 11:27-33). Above all, Mark had already introduced the chief priests and scribes shortly before in the scene of the cleansing of the temple (Mk 11:18), to which the further pericope with John the Baptist refers. For while the parallel passage in *Ev 20:1-8 discussed above dealt with the subject of Jesus' teaching authority, Mark relates the story here to the preceding cleansing of the temple with the passage he inserted about the withered fig tree and therefore does not emphasise the confrontation between Jesus and the Pharisees at this point, as in *Ev, but to "chief priests, scribes and elders". We will discuss this passage in more detail below in Matthew and again in Luke.
Another important omission of Mark should be noted. As we saw above in the comments on the *Ev, the scene with the spreading of the news about Jesus "as far as John the Baptist" (*Ev 7:17-22) was a central passage, because in it Markion explicitly documented that John had taken "offence" at Jesus, but conversely Jesus answered the disciples of John in the same passage: "Blessed are you if you take no offence at me!" The antithesis between the Baptist and Jesus could not be formulated more clearly. Understandably, the whole passage is missing in Mark, which is no surprise after all that has been explained before, since Mark has portrayed John as a mediator between Jesus and the Jewish prophets, not as a border between Jewish prophecy and Jesus, as he found in his model *Ev.


For Mt, like Mk, has also inserted the scene of the cleansing of the temple and the image comparison with the withered fig tree. Thus the question of authority does not refer, as in *Ev, to the teaching of Jesus mentioned in *Ev 20,1 in contrast to that of the Phaisees, but to his cleansing of the temple, criticised by the temple authorities. As already explained in *Ev, *Ev shows more clearly than Mt and Mk the criticism of Jesus by the Pharisees (cf. also *Ev 19,39 par.).

Just throwing these in here, what exactly are you looking for?
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:30 pm Just throwing these in here, what exactly are you looking for?
thanks, I wanted to know precisely, according to Vinzent, why Jesus in *Ev 20:1-4 connects the question about his authority with the question about John's authority.

What you have quoted is what I already knew, i.e. that everywhere in *Ev there is antithesis, conflict and contrast between Jesus and John (what Kunigunde is obstinate to not see). But Kunigunde insists that at least in *Ev 20:1-4 Jesus loves John, hence it would be a vestigia derived from Mark by *Ev (so confuting *Ev priority). Hence possibly I would be interested, when Vinzent writes:

For while the parallel passage in *Ev 20:1-8 discussed above dealt with the subject of Jesus' teaching authority,

...about how the prof discusses *Ev 20:1-4 "above".
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:50 pm
mlinssen wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 12:30 pm Just throwing these in here, what exactly are you looking for?
thanks, I wanted to know precisely, according to Vinzent, why Jesus in *Ev 20:1-4 connects the question about his authority with the question about John's authority.

What you have quoted is what I already knew, i.e. that everywhere in *Ev there is antithesis, conflict and contrast between Jesus and John (what Kunigunde is obstinate to not see). But Kunigunde insists that at least in *Ev 20:1-4 Jesus loves John, hence it would be a vestigia derived from Mark by *Ev (so confuting *Ev priority). Hence possibly I would be interested, when Vinzent writes:

For while the parallel passage in *Ev 20:1-8 discussed above dealt with the subject of Jesus' teaching authority,

...about how the prof discusses *Ev 20:1-4 "above".

In Markion's version, therefore, an antithetical moment to the Baptist can be clearly discerned. For according to Lk 3:1-9 and Mt 3:1-10 (cf. also Mk 1:2-6) John preached the baptism of repentance. Purification does not come from above, but is mediated by the ascetic John with threats, call to repentance and baptism of repentance. Unlike the *Ev, which knows no baptism of Jesus by John, according to the later canonical Gospels (Lk 3:21-22; Mt 3:13-17; Mk 1:9-11;
Jn 1:29-34) Jesus must undergo this baptism of John, thereby accepting that they were also exposing Jesus to the call to repentance and the baptism of repentance and that he would follow in the footsteps of the Baptist. The request for the descent of the Holy Spirit and purification is replaced in Matthew100 by the more general request that God's will be done in heaven as on earth. Thus in Lk (as in Mt) the antithesis to John is missing, while the other two witnesses do not show any criticism of John through the generalisation.
(5) Somewhat later in *Ev (20:1-8) there is yet another mention of John the Baptist (which is encountered almost identically also in Lk 20:1-8,19):
"1And it came to pass, as he was teaching the people in the temple on one of those days, the Pharisees arose 2and said to him, 'Explain to us by what authority you are doing this, and who it is that has given you this authority!' 3He answered and said to them, "I also will ask you a question, which you shall answer me.
4Was John's baptism from heaven or from men?' 5But they reasoned and said to one another, 'If we say, "From heaven," he will say, "Then why did you not believe him?"' 6But if we say, "From men," all the people will stone us because they are convinced that John is a prophet."' 7 And they answered that they did not know the whence.
8 And Jesus said to them, 'Then neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.' 19 And they tried to lay hands on him, but they were afraid." *Ev has Jesus' answer formulated in the form of a question back to the Pharisees, who had already appeared as his opponents at the entry into Jerusalem (*Ev 19:39)-in whose place Luke mentions (like Mk 11:27, while Mt 21:23 mentions only ho priests and the elders of the people) the chief priests and the scribes with the elders101-as to whether they believed that John's baptism was from heaven or from men. Thus this dialogue is set in a different framework than in Lk. For *Ev, as Tertullian has correctly understood,102 is about the question whether John also baptises out of the same heavenly authority out of which Jesus preaches. Although the *Ev offers no account of John's baptism, the Gospel presupposes general knowledge of it, such as might have been gleaned from Josephus or known as oral tradition to the audience. However, as we have seen before, the *Ev prepares the ground for those postscripts that could take up this open narrative thread and spin it further.103 Jesus' question had put the Pharisees in a dilemma because both answer options had to seem disadvantageous to them, firstly because of the possible self-contradiction, secondly because of the external pressure. But the expected answer that they would consider John's baptism to be one "of men" is also revealing, because it is contrasted with the view of the people who consider John to be a prophet, i.e. assume that he acted out of heavenly authority. As for Jesus' own authority, the narrator, along with his protagonist, is shrouded in silence.

I had seen the reference yesterday but couldn't find more than what there is. Vinzent is picking from both sides here with claiming that *Ev had no baptism but that Marcion knew it from oral tradition (LOL)

Regarding Kunigunde's point: the lack of introduction as a pointer to anything is so incredibly dumb, and she makes the same error next:
"Marcion had no problem with his Jesus being buried and having flesh and bones. His Jesus would also have endured a water baptism."
If you believe the Falsifying Fathers all the way, you'll be caught in circular lies. Did Jesus have to repent for his sins then? Why don't they address that?

Does she notice that, unlike John, Mark and Matthew, Luke doesn't flog Jesus? But instead he's "chastised"?

"GMarcion contains no indication that according to Marcion such a vast chasm exists between John and Jesus. On the contrary, Marcion 20:4 ff is well attested." is a non sequitur - besides that, why do the FF criticise Marcion for something that Luke shares verbatim?
Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Giuseppe »

Thank you! :cheers:

The two jems are the following:

For *Ev, as Tertullian has correctly understood,102 is about the question whether John also baptises out of the same heavenly authority out of which Jesus preaches.

...and:

As for Jesus' own authority, the narrator, along with his protagonist, is shrouded in silence.

In short, as *Ev 20:1-4 fits fully Marcionite dualism:
  • The problem: is the god of Jesus the same god of John?
  • About the authority of John: two diverging explanations, but two explanations originated both in the mere human intellect.
  • About the authority of Jesus: no explanation at all coming from humans, not even by Jesus himself.
So the implicit answer is that the explanation of the authority of Jesus can only be a not-human explanation. Therefore: the god of Jesus is not the same god of John.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:15 am Thank you! :cheers:

The two jems are the following:

For *Ev, as Tertullian has correctly understood,102 is about the question whether John also baptises out of the same heavenly authority out of which Jesus preaches.

...and:

As for Jesus' own authority, the narrator, along with his protagonist, is shrouded in silence.

In short, as *Ev 20:1-4 fits fully Marcionite dualism:
  • The problem: is the god of Jesus the same god of John?
  • About the authority of John: two diverging explanations, but two explanations originated both in the mere human intellect.
  • About the authority of Jesus: no explanation at all coming from humans, not even by Jesus himself.
So the implicit answer is that the explanation of the authority of Jesus can only be a not-human explanation. Therefore: the god of Jesus is not the same god of John.
Yes, exactly - and that is all there is to *Ev regarding the provenance of any Gawd(s)

Which necessitates the FF to come up with all kinds of extra lies about what "Marcion" would say with regards to God, but he simply doesn't say anything.

Look at the NHL: a magnitude of texts tries to create their own Genesis, some of which interlink via names and themes - but what they all share is that they fill a void. And that void is created by "Marcion" precisely because he doesn't say anything about the origin of Jesus' authority.
And Jesus doesn't need any authority as he originates from the Father, just as Thomas says - and once again I must remind everyone of John Presbyter having him say "I and the father are one".
Marcion doesn't say that there is a god of Jesus, but he must certainly die not say that he equates to the god of the Tanakh - and questions must have arisen over that interesting little void, and that void gets filled by the FF - but not by *Ev

One last, for your quest - on-topic but about a different passage:

(4) Once again Jesus sets himself apart from the Baptist and his disciples by teaching his disciples a prayer that is different from the one the Baptist taught (*Ev 11:1-2):
"And it happened as he was praying in a solitary place; and when he had ceased, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.' But he said to them, 'When you pray, do not stammer as others do, for they think that by many words they will be listened to.'"91 Here Jesus is more explicit than before. John's prayer is compared with the stammering and many-word making of John's disciples, whereby his own, brief Lord's Prayer becomes the antithesis of the wordy prayer of John's disciples.92 Jesus' disciples are thus not to pray "like the others", but to learn a new prayer given by him.

Giuseppe
Posts: 13732
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italy

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:29 am One last, for your quest - on-topic but about a different passage:
very perceptive by you! In both the cases, the contrast:

many words/explanations/clamors

versus

few or zero words/no explanation/absolute silence.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by MrMacSon »

( I've changed the background in the quote boxes to the same ie. cornsilk to show the text therein is, iiuc, all Vinzent's, Christi Thora )
Giuseppe wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:15 am
The two jems are the following:

.*Ev, as Tertullian has correctly understood, is about the question whether John also baptises out of the same heavenly authority out of which Jesus preaches

...and:

. As for Jesus' own authority, the narrator, along with his protagonist, is shrouded in silence

In short, as *Ev 20:1-4 fits fully Marcionite dualism:
  • The problem: is the god of Jesus the same god of John?
  • About the authority of John: two diverging explanations, but both explanations originated in the mere human intellect.
  • About the authority of Jesus: no explanation at all coming from humans, not even from Jesus himself.
So the implicit answer is that the explanation of the authority of Jesus can only be a not-human explanation.
  • Therefore: the god of Jesus is not the same god of John.
mlinssen wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 2:29 am
One last, for your quest - on-topic but about a different passage:

(4) Once again Jesus sets himself apart from the Baptist and his disciples by teaching his disciples a prayer that is different from the one the Baptist taught (*Ev 11:1-2):
"And it happened as he was praying in a solitary place; and when he had ceased, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.' But he said to them, 'When you pray, do not stammer as others do, for they think that by many words they will be listened to'." Here Jesus is more explicit than before. John's prayer is compared with the stammering and many-word making of John's disciples, whereby his [John's] own brief Lord's Prayer becomes the antithesis of the wordy prayer of John's disciples. Jesus' disciples are thus not to pray "like the others", but to learn a new prayer given by him.

This is gold: it seems to show both (i) changing theology vertically ie. between a sage—in this case John— and his disciples; and (ii) someone seeking to impose another narrative over the top. As was likely happening often in the milieu of interactions, dialogues and debates within emerging Chreistianity (sic)

Vinzent's dissections of Tertullian's writings are probably second-to-none, which is why he can say things like this

.*Ev, as Tertullian has correctly understood, is about the question whether John also baptises out of the same heavenly authority out of which Jesus preaches

( it may be a translational thing, but it may well be Vinzent who has very cleverly discerned what 'Tertullian had noted or subtly revealed' )


This is also noteworthy too
mlinssen wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 12:58 am
... that they would consider John's baptism to be one "of men" is also revealing, because it is contrasted with the view of the people who consider[ed] John to be a prophet, ie. assume[d] that he acted out of heavenly authority. As for Jesus' own authority, the narrator, along with his protagonist, is shrouded in silence.

User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:01 am
Vinzent's dissections of Tertullian's writings are probably second-to-none, which is why he can say things like this

.*Ev, as Tertullian has correctly understood, is about the question whether John also baptises out of the same heavenly authority out of which Jesus preaches

( it may be a translational thing, but it may well be Vinzent who has very cleverly discerned what 'Tertullian had noted or subtly revealed' )
I'm as fluent in German as I'm in English (typos excluded), but it's always best to verify yourself:

Christi Thora page 130-1

Denn *Ev geht es, wie Tertullian richtig verstanden hat,102um die Frage, ob auch Johannes aus derselben himmlischen Vollmacht heraus tauft, aus der heraus Jesus predigt. Zwar bietet *Ev keinen Bericht über das Taufen des Johannes, aber das Evangelium setzt die allgemeine Kenntnis hierüber voraus, wie man sie vielleicht etwa aus Josephus hat ziehen können oder als mündliche Tradi-tion der Hörerschaft bekannt war. Wie wir zuvor gesehen haben, bereitet *Ev al-lerdings den Boden für diejenigen Nachschriften, die diesen offenen narrativen Fa-den aufgriffen und weiterspinnen konnten

.

102 Vgl. Tert., Adv. Marc. IV 38,2.

DEEPL.COM is your friend

And yes, Vinzent speaks of oral tradition. We both have different ideas about the provenance of Jesus - and I feel bad for him as his continued journey will end up in his entire Jesus view being blown to bits; if that hasn't already happened yet. But his latest post told of his persistence in going where the evidence leads him, something which is very commendable.
And yes, I'm not telling everything
Markus Vinzent
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun May 09, 2021 11:32 pm

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Markus Vinzent »

Thanks to all of you who are reading what I tried to convey. I am about to translate the work into English and also make a few amendments. As you have seen, this is not easy material, and while efforts have been made in the past to understand the development during the first and the second centuries, there is more to discover. Where I am ending, I have no idea at the moment, so let us explore more on the journey. Thanks for every note, which I am reading with care and ponder upon,
yours Markus
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Markus Vinzent wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:12 am Thanks to all of you who are reading what I tried to convey.
Hi Markus Vinzent, I'm your harshest critic on this board but I think it's great that you're checking in here :thumbup:
Post Reply