Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
schillingklaus
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by schillingklaus »

No, Magne's argumentation is nowhere near wild as it is based on the logical connections of dogms and concepts, not on on accidental chronology.
Giuseppe
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Giuseppe »

mlinssen wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:58 am Magne may accidentally have a partial point here, but his argumentation is wild. I haven't read him, by the way
more I read about your reconstruction (still in progress) of the Origins, especially when I listen you talking about 'Chrestianity', 'Unknown Father', 'absence of Christ in Thomas', Marcion, etc, more I say to myself: but this has been already said by Jean Magne!

Obviously not when I listen you talking about IS et similia.
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:08 am
mlinssen wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:58 am Magne may accidentally have a partial point here, but his argumentation is wild. I haven't read him, by the way
more I read about your reconstruction (still in progress) of the Origins, especially when I listen you talking about 'Chrestianity', 'Unknown Father', 'absence of Christ in Thomas', Marcion, etc, more I say to myself: but this has been already said by Jean Magne!

Obviously not when I listen you talking about IS et similia.
Well, I'll give Magne a go then! Thanks Giuseppe

(Do you have a link? Tried for a few minutes and didn't find one. I've grown very lazy lately LOL)
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

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Warum Johannes einerseits als Mensch solche Größe, im Himmel aber solche Kleinheit zugeschrieben wird, kann man bis zu die-sem Punkt Mt nicht entnehmen, während in *Ev die Begründung darin liegt, dass er als Vorbote gefehlt hat, weil er die Taten Jesu als Hinweise auf den „großen Pro-pheten“ und Messias nicht verstanden, sondern an ihm Anstoß genommen hat, also nicht selig ist.

Vinzent finally succeeds in giving meaning to this riddle by linking it to Marcion's story.
I must say that his reconstruction based on Klinghardt is quite coherent, and the parallels and elaborations in this chapter more than infotaining. Basically all of the NT appears to be nothing but Matthew following up on Mark; fixing errors and omissions, smoothing contradictions, and sharpening the contrast between Mark and *Ev, thereby not only stressing that Mark responds to Marcion but inadvertently admitting that Marcion still matters greatly, likely even more greatly than in Mark's time
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Giuseppe »

Since it appears that prof Vinzent has promised:

The book will also appear in an English version, on which I am working right now.

...I ask mlinssen if I will find in it a further in-depth analysis of the my preferred theme: the challenge between Markan priority and *Ev priority.

I would like a comparison more along theological/polemical motives, rather than along merely technical reasons as those found in Klinghardt.
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

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Giuseppe wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:07 am Since it appears that prof Vinzent has promised:

The book will also appear in an English version, on which I am working right now.

...I ask mlinssen if I will find in it a further in-depth analysis of the my preferred theme: the challenge between Markan priority and *Ev priority.

I would like a comparison more along theological/polemical motives, rather than along merely technical reasons as those found in Klinghardt.
I wouldn't worry Giuseppe! LOL

You'll get all that you wish for, and much more. I'm halfway the book now
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Was persecuting of Judaics by Marcionites the reason to outlaw Judaism?

Post by mlinssen »

I can be really thick sometimes - I just assumed that *Ev was nothing but Thomas turned into religion, because I perceived it through Thomasine eyes of course. So a bit of baptism, a narrative, a fun miracle here and there - but I couldn't see a business case for Marcion killing Jesus in any way, why not leave it in the dark just as his origin?

Yet I'm at 3/4th of Christi Thora (and I think it wise to omit at this very instance that I've read the 1,400 Klinghardt pages last year LOL) and Vinzent magnificently manages to stress to anti-Judaism in *Ev, and it suddenly dawned me: there is anti-Judaism all over yet the epitome of *Ev is having its protagonist killed by the Jews.
And what I see now is how Chrestianity or Marcion or *Ev, different words for the same thing, must have become a genuine threat to Judaism - I can envision Chrestian mobs, raging with hate, directed against Judaics.
And perhaps Bar Kokhba never took place as described, or the elements were quite different, but under the cowardly or cunning slogan "if you can't beat them, join them" the very reason for outlawing Judaism could have been only to take away the fuel to the fire, the zeal: just ban all expressions of Judaism and peace and calm will return

And as such, Chrestianity had to be managed really, it had turned into a great risk that had to be mitigated - and perhaps, or rather, likely, controlled. Softened up. Spun (or is it spinned?), covered up.
The NT as such is a living testimony to the gigantic spread of *Ev / Chrestianity as they changed only little - it was known by so many that only small portions of it could be distorted, turned and twisted

So it wasn't a question of why Chrestianity had to be turned into Christianity, it was entirely inevitable and the only question was how.
The entire goal - at first - was to numb it, to take off the edges, and the first thing to do was to counter the antitheses.
The next thing to do was to link it to Judaism, which was just one of the ways to counter the antitheses

It was a bare necessity to write the NT
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »


Will man die Beobachtungen zum Verhältnis des Täufers zu Jesus im Joh zusam-menfassen, stechen zunächst Nähe und Distanz der beiden ins Auge. Ich habe des-halb wiederholt von einer Zwischenstellung des Joh zwischen einerseits den Synoptikern und andererseits *Ev gesprochen. Joh teilt grundsätzlich die Antithetik mit Markion, doch er unterläuft die damit beabsichtigte Unterscheidung zwischen der Prophetie des Johannes und dem Propheten Jesus und kehrt sie um. Auch wenn Joh gegenüber dem Gesetz Mose, den Schriften, auch den Propheten kriti-scher ist als die Synoptiker, hält er doch daran fest, dass in den Propheten von Christus die Rede ist, auch wenn weder die Damaligen noch die Heutigen ihn ge-sehen und erkannt haben. Verloren hat der Täufer gegenüber den Synoptikern den eschatologischen Charakter und wird zu Jesu Zeuge. Seine Taufe ist keine der Um-kehr, sondern ein „Mittel der Offenbarung“.447Dass er Jesus getauft hat, bleibt un-erwähnt und lässt sich „höchstens mit Hilfe des entsprechenden Vorwissens aus den Synoptikern zwischen den Zeilen herauslesen“

This is the last one really, I'm spoiling way too much - yet I'm deliberately doing this in German in order to keep the bar high (although it'll only take a few secs to translate it)

It is a brilliant book really, absolutely insightful. I doubt it's worth the trouble to try to make sense of the typical Roman rhetoric of Paul, and I'm pretty sure that Vinzent's next step will be to venture into what came prior to *Ev or along with it: Thomas and Chrestianity.
I am quite sure that we will see the entire NHL properly translated within this decade, preferably in the way that I have translated Thomas so it is all verifiable and traceable - we have been duped long enough. It is in the NHL that the Christian origins can be found, because it was Chrestianity / Marcion that preceded Christianity: and since today (and Christi Thora) it is clear to me that the Romans had no other choice but to hijack *Ev, mitigate and euphemise it, and take over the entire movement

They started with Mark but it was weak and only led to greater hate against Judaics, and it didn't relieve Rome from their role in executing Jesus. So they copied *Ev wholesale and wrote Matthew along with doing that, and managed to redact John.
John, Luke, Matthew, Mark: that is the order with Irenaeus, and it attests to an attempt to plead to Chrestianity, to gently try to infiltrate the movement, to alter its course, with two original documents from within Chrestianity in the lead, albeit heavily redacted in order to counter *Ev (I think)

38 euros guys, this is a MUST read. Just set aside a dollar a month and you'll have no excuse to not buy it by the time the translation comes out.
Or just buy the German ebook, yank it through deepl.com, and get just as excited as I am - possibly even more because most of you are way deeper into this whole NT business than I am
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by mlinssen »

A new religion not based in Judaism would necessitate a new Genesis, and in that light the various attempts to describe a Beginning with multiple heavens, archontes and everything else, makes perfect sense

If we take Marcion / Chrestianity exactly as it is sketched - or rather, pretty clearly described and argumented - by Vinzent, a clear void exists; a void that in the NT is fixed in hindsight by the birth narratives in Luke and Matthew which were relatively required for a human, yet irrelevant to a "celestial" (read: non-flesh) Jesus in Chrestianity.
Yet the absence of any story on the father that his Jesus (and that of John) clearly points to as above and before him would require a Chrestian Genesis just as the Tanakh has - in whichever form that may be

So all the crazy mumbo jumbo that we discard as Gnostic may very well have had a clear purpose and goal in Christian origins exactly because those were Chrestian origins. Then again we should first translate all of the NHL all over, objectively, without Christian bias, before we could start to look at that

Philip is pivotal as he narrates from a Christian perspective yet without disdain of his past as Chrestian, Hebrew and Judaic - yet he is too late to rely upon when it comes to see which of the creation stories finally won - if anyone really cared about a proper single one, that is

Anyway, if I read between the lines it would seem that Vinzent isn't ready for a non-existing Jesus (or John the Baptist) so I wonder how he will go on continuing this work - but it really should be continued as it has been incredibly fruitful so far.
The next step inevitably leads to Thomas, and can only be one of proper textual criticism; primarily and mostly looking at the content instead of the context. Or, as it has been paraphrased by others:
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:22 pm We also need to take up the fundamental historical methods of "minimalists" since these are nothing other than the core methods of "non-biblical" historians ever since the nineteenth century. That means we need sound evidence-based arguments -- not circular or question-begging assumptions about "traditions" -- as our guide to dating the relevant sources.
Shall we label it contentual criticism?
It stresses the core aspect of content, and that would make me very content at the same time - and of course it reminds everyone not to continue the futile contextual criticism that is little more than the usual Pauline research where opinions are based on assumptions of interpretations of someone who evidently is nothing more but a cunning Roman rhetoric
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Re: Christi Thora: new book by Markus Vinzent (German)

Post by Giuseppe »

Martijn,

can you report what prof Vinzent says about *Ev 20:1-4 ? How does he interpret it, if he mentions it in this book?

Very interested, thanks.
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