Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by John2 »

Given that Jesus says that he will "go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,” I'm inclined to think that Mark had a lost ending in which Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee. Ben has made an excellent case for a lost ending in these two threads (which I'd somehow never noticed until recently), and the only thing I would add to them is that I think the reason the ending is lost is because it included a resurrection appearance to Judas Iscariot.


viewtopic.php?t=3092


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3049


The reason I think Jesus appeared to Judas is that Mark doesn't mention his death and because if Jesus' prediction in 14:27-28 that "you will all fall away" includes Judas then his prediction that "after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee” logically also includes Judas.

I also think that Matthew and Luke/Acts used Mark, and what do they have in common? They both (in different ways) relate the death of Judas, which is an indication to me that a resurrection appearance to Judas was unacceptable to the earliest readers of Mark and that its original ending may have been removed for this reason, perhaps before Matthew and Luke even saw Mark.

Papias (who I date c. 115 CE) relates an oral tradition regarding the death of Judas, and this is another indication to me that a resurrection appearance to Judas was unacceptable to the earliest readers of Mark. And since in my view Papias knew Matthew and says that it was originally written in Hebrew and translated multiple times, I suspect that the Matthew he knew may not have been the NT version (since it has an account of the death of Judas), but was instead the original Hebrew version or a different translation of it than the NT version (which presumably did not have an account of the death of Judas).

All this is entirely speculative and can't be proven, but I think it makes sense of the information we have, at least.
lsayre
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by lsayre »

Evan Powell believed that the 21st chapter of the Gospel of John was actually the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark.
John2
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by John2 »

lsayre wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:15 pm Evan Powell believed that the 21st chapter of the Gospel of John was actually the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark.

Ben discusses that idea in the first thread I linked to above and he seems partial to it.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
davidlau17
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by davidlau17 »

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:27 pm
lsayre wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:15 pm Evan Powell believed that the 21st chapter of the Gospel of John was actually the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark.
Ben discusses that idea the first thread I linked to above and he seems partial to it.
Not saying I necessarily agree yet, but this line seems pretty Marcan.

John 21:7b When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on some clothes, for he was naked, and jumped into the sea.

Also, to build on your idea of a resurrection appearance to Judas Iscariot, John 21 could be read as being consistent with this notion. The chapter seems fairly tight-lipped when it comes to the identities of the disciples, referring furtively to "two other disciples" when it provides its list of them. Could Judas originally have been among the disciples at the sea? Of course this may mean nothing, seeing as John is no stranger to keeping the disciples' identities anonymous (the beloved disciple).
John2
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by John2 »

If a lost ending still existed by John's time then I suppose there could be something to John 21, but I don't know if a lost ending even existed by Matthew and Luke's time. But maybe John 21 was created from an earlier source that knew the lost ending that was then added to John.

In any event, I think Mk. 14:21 indicates that Judas didn't die.

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.

To me Jesus is saying that he (Jesus) will die but Judas will live and suffer so much that he'll wish he had never been born. As noted here regarding a debate about this question between the schools of Shammai and Hillel in Eruvin 13b, there are a number of things that can make existing seem worse than not existing.

The School of Shammai, which rarely won arguments over their rival school Hillel, felt that when you think about it, life is too tough. Human existence, with its constant challenges, troubles and travails is simply not worth it. It is just too painful ...

After two and half years, they finally came to an agreement. In a stunning upset, the School of Hillel agreed with the School of Shammai: it is indeed better for man not to have been created ...

With illness and disease, the difficulty of raising a family, the bitterness of divorce, the frustrations of failure, the struggles, the death of loved ones, life can be so good, but it is so very hard to endure. And when depression sets in, when one’s existence is loneliness, when pain and heartache leaves a person numb, it would have been better for man to have never been born.


http://www.bnaijacob.com/uploads/8/1/3/ ... debate.pdf



Perhaps Mark gives a taste of this in his account of Peter in 14:72:

Then Peter remembered the word that Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.

Maybe Judas was similarly overcome with sorrow and remorse or endured misfortune because of his actions but likewise received an appearance from the resurrected Jesus as per Mk. 14:28.
Last edited by John2 on Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jair
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by Jair »

I always felt the text ended rather abruptly and awkwardly. Also it’s interesting that we find a Galilee tradition tacked onto the ending of gJohn.
Jair
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by Jair »

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:21 pm Given that Jesus says that he will "go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,” I'm inclined to think that Mark had a lost ending in which Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee. Ben has made an excellent case for a lost ending in these two threads (which I'd somehow never noticed until recently), and the only thing I would add to them is that I think the reason the ending is lost is because it included a resurrection appearance to Judas Iscariot.


viewtopic.php?t=3092


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3049


The reason I think Jesus appeared to Judas is that Mark doesn't mention his death and because if Jesus' prediction in 14:27-28 that "you will all fall away" includes Judas then his prediction that "after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee” logically also includes Judas.

I also think that Matthew and Luke/Acts used Mark, and what do they have in common? They both (in different ways) relate the death of Judas, which is an indication to me that a resurrection appearance to Judas was unacceptable to the earliest readers of Mark and that its original ending may have been removed for this reason, perhaps before Matthew and Luke even saw Mark.

Papias (who I date c. 115 CE) relates an oral tradition regarding the death of Judas, and this is another indication to me that a resurrection appearance to Judas was unacceptable to the earliest readers of Mark. And since in my view Papias knew Matthew and says that it was originally written in Hebrew and translated multiple times, I suspect that the Matthew he knew may not have been the NT version (since it has an account of the death of Judas), but was instead the original Hebrew version or a different translation of it than the NT version (which presumably did not have an account of the death of Judas).

All this is entirely speculative and can't be proven, but I think it makes sense of the information we have, at least.
I’m particularly curious about sources regarding an appearance to Judas tradition. Where can this be found?
davidlau17
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by davidlau17 »

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:33 pm In any event, I think Mk. 14:21 indicates that Judas didn't die.
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.

To me Jesus is saying that he (Jesus) will die but Judas will live and suffer so much that he'll wish he had never been born. As noted here regarding a debate about this question between the schools of Shammai and Hillel in Eruvim 13b, there are a number of things that can make existing seem worse than not existing.
I think Papias probably interpreted Mark 14:21 this way. The interpretation is entirely consistent with the longer, more grotesque (and absurd) version of Papias' account of Judas' death according to Apollinarius from Cramer's Catena on Acts 1.

But Judas went about in this world as a great model of impiety. He became so bloated in the flesh that he could not pass through a place that was easily wide enough for a wagon—not even his swollen head could fit. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent that he could not see the light at all; and a doctor could not see his eyes even with an optical device, so deeply sunken they were in the surrounding flesh. And his genitals became more disgusting and larger than anyone's; simply by relieving himself, to his wanton shame, he emitted pus and worms that flowed through his entire body. And they say that after he suffered numerous torments and punishments, he died on his own land, and that land has been, until now, desolate and uninhabited because of the stench. Indeed, even to this day no one can pass by the place without holding his nose. This was how great an outpouring he made from his flesh on the ground.

(translation by Bart Ehrman on p. 105-106 of The Apostolic Fathers II)
moses
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by moses »

Given that Jesus says that he will "go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,”
in what sense " i will go ahead of you" ?
is he saying "i will go ahead of you, but will you follow" ?

But he began to curse, and he swore an oath, “I do not know this man you are talking about.” 72 At that moment the cock crowed for the second time. Then Peter remembered that Jesus had said to him, “Before the cock crows twice, you will deny me three times.” And he broke down and wept.

peter is weeping about his condition as a coward and a failure. thats the last thing he remembers.

the women are meant to convey "they you will see him," but they said nothing to anyone because like peter they were full of fear and fled to safety.
Steven Avery
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Re: Was there a lost ending of Mark?

Post by Steven Avery »

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 3:21 pm
This is covered by the fact that other Gospel(s) came first, before Mark, and were available to the readers.

BCHF
A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... 08#p106808
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