Was there a lost ending of Mark?

[Steven Avery]

"go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7

This is covered by the fact that other Gospel(s) came first, before Mark, and were available to the readers.

BCHF
A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... 08#p106808
[/quote]

[Steven Avery]

"go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7

This is covered by the fact that other Gospel(s) came first, before Mark, and were available to the readers.

BCHF
A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... 08#p106808

[Steven Avery]

"go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7

This is covered by the fact that other Gospel(s) came first, before Mark, and were available to the readers.

BCHF
A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... 08#p106808

[davidlau17]

A Proposal that the Longer Ending of Mark is Dependent on the Gospel of Luke
http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopi ... 08#p106808

I think the longer ending is more likely to be a scribal amalgamation of Luke and Papias (possibly based on traditions handed down to him by Ariston). The drinking of "any deadly thing, it will not hurt them" echoes what Papias wrote about Justus Barsabbas, and one Armenian manuscript (Matenadaran 2374) has a note between Mark 16.8 and 16.9: "Of Ariston the Elder."

[John2]

In any event, I think Mk. 14:21 indicates that Judas didn't die.

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.

To me Jesus is saying that he (Jesus) will die but Judas will live and suffer so much that he'll wish he had never been born. As noted here regarding a debate about this question between the schools of Shammai and Hillel in Eruvin 13b, there are a number of things that can make existing seem worse than not existing.

I think Papias probably interpreted Mark 14:21 this way. The interpretation is entirely consistent with the longer, more grotesque (and absurd) version of Papias' account of Judas' death according to Apollinarius from Cramer's Catena on Acts 1.

But Judas went about in this world as a great model of impiety. He became so bloated in the flesh that he could not pass through a place that was easily wide enough for a wagon—not even his swollen head could fit. They say that his eyelids swelled to such an extent that he could not see the light at all; and a doctor could not see his eyes even with an optical device, so deeply sunken they were in the surrounding flesh. And his genitals became more disgusting and larger than anyone's; simply by relieving himself, to his wanton shame, he emitted pus and worms that flowed through his entire body. And they say that after he suffered numerous torments and punishments, he died on his own land, and that land has been, until now, desolate and uninhabited because of the stench. Indeed, even to this day no one can pass by the place without holding his nose. This was how great an outpouring he made from his flesh on the ground.

(translation by Bart Ehrman on p. 105-106 of The Apostolic Fathers II)

My memory told me that this was just another account of Judas dying soon after his betrayal (and thus missing out on a resurrection appearance), but now it looks like it could have been long after, since it says "after suffering numerous torments and punishments, he died." But it still doesn't sound like he had a resurrection appearance, and this would be consistent with my supposed original ending of Mark being lost by Papias' time.

So if there was a lost ending it must have been lost very early, before Papias (and his oral sources) and possibly before the NT Matthew and Luke, with Papias being the terminus ad quem by my reckoning (c. 115 CE), since i think the latter were written before that.

All we really have then is the Mark we have, and to judge from that it looks to me like there was a lost ending for the reasons I gave in the OP and the ones Ben discusses in his threads that I linked to.

Though I suppose one possibility could be that Papias' oral sources had something to do with a lost ending being lost and they thus invented this account of Judas' death. And that would be consistent with Ariston tinkering with the ending of Mark, if he is the same person as Papias' source Aristion.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Ben has made an excellent case for a lost ending in these two threads (which I'd somehow never noticed until recently), and the only thing I would add to them is that I think the reason the ending is lost is because it included a resurrection appearance to Judas Iscariot.

viewtopic.php?t=3092

What great posts Ben wrote! Even if you had a different view, you could always follow his train of thought and understand and accept his well-balanced reasoning.

[JoeWallack]

Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Given that Jesus says that he will "go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,” I'm inclined to think that Mark had a lost ending in which Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee. Ben has made an excellent case for a lost ending in these two threads (which I'd somehow never noticed until recently), and the only thing I would add to them is that I think the reason the ending is lost is because it included a resurrection appearance to Judas Iscariot.

JW:
There is no External evidence for a lost ending and Internal evidence is dominated by The Difficult Reading Principle which favors no Lost Ending.
That doesn't leave you with much. The word "lost" includes a meaning of "accidental". But that does not fit your reason. This and that is a bad combination for your conclusion.

"the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,”. Now I wonder if your Gospel has also lost verse 16:8:

16

Mark 16:8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

Joseph

"If you are searching and searching for something and you just can't seem to find it anywhere, it probably means it's lost" - Granny Wallack

Skeptical Textual Criticism

[Secret Alias]

Daniel 9:26 the Messiah will disappear and be no more ...

[Jair]

Be Afraid. Be Very Afraid For. Confirmation 16:8 Original

Given that Jesus says that he will "go ahead of" the disciples to Galilee in Mk. 14:28 and that the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,” I'm inclined to think that Mark had a lost ending in which Jesus appeared to his disciples in Galilee. Ben has made an excellent case for a lost ending in these two threads (which I'd somehow never noticed until recently), and the only thing I would add to them is that I think the reason the ending is lost is because it included a resurrection appearance to Judas Iscariot.

JW:
There is no External evidence for a lost ending and Internal evidence is dominated by The Difficult Reading Principle which favors no Lost Ending.
That doesn't leave you with much. The word "lost" includes a meaning of "accidental". But that does not fit your reason. This and that is a bad combination for your conclusion.

"the young man in the empty tomb in 16:7 says, "There you will see him, just as he told you,”. Now I wonder if your Gospel has also lost verse 16:8:

16

Mark 16:8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid.

Joseph

"If you are searching and searching for something and you just can't seem to find it anywhere, it probably means it's lost" - Granny Wallack

Skeptical Textual Criticism

This doesn’t solve the problem of how abrupt the ending is that we have. In order to completely discount any possibility of a lost ending, we’d have to find really solid arguments that the ending per Mark 16:8 is intentionally abrupt.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

This doesn’t solve the problem of how abrupt the ending is that we have. In order to completely discount any possibility of a lost ending, we’d have to find really solid arguments that the ending per Mark 16:8 is intentionally abrupt.

For many the ending at 16:8 isn't a problem at all. I think it's pretty cool and fitting.

From a psychological pov (sorry!) it seems to me that the undertaking to discover that there was a lost end and to reconstruct a lost end looks like a modern variant form of those ancient attempts to add a longer ending. Joe may have meant the same

"If you are searching and searching for something and you just can't seem to find it anywhere, it probably means it's lost" - Granny Wallack