What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

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Giuseppe
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What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

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And now you can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the possessing devils out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs.

(Justin, 2 Apology 6)

Is Justin saying that the healings, exorcisms and miracles worked by Christians (contemporaries of Justin) confirmed that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate 120 years before Justin?

Yes, according to Paul-Louis Couchoud.

The implicit reason is that otherwise Justin would have never mentioned Pilate in the expression:

in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate

If the miracle served to prove the power of the name, then the same miracle had serve to prove the identity of the name in question: the Jesus crucified under Pontius Pilate. Not another Jesus.


He makes to note that precisely between Pliny and Tacitus the name "Pilate" was connected the first time with Jesus by Christians, since Pliny ignores Pilate while Tacitus hears the name of Pilate (obviously hearing it from the Christians).

The first gospel had to be still written.

So Pilate was connected with Jesus in a time when:
  • 1) the Christians were persecuted;
  • 2) the miracles had to prove to outsiders (remember that Justin was addressing officially the emperor Antoninus Pius) the divine power of Jesus and the "correct" identity of Jesus: the Jesus "crucified under Pontius Pilate";
  • 3) if the Christians were persecuted unjustly by Romans, then also the Christ had to be persecuted unjustly by a Roman;
  • 4) Pilate was remembered, by the time of Justin, as a cruel governor.


All this before the earliest gospel.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

Post by Giuseppe »

Surprise, surprise:

Couchoud thinks that 1 Timothy 6:13:

In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you

...was written in the same period (between Pliny and Tacitus) and before the earliest gospel.

So the name of Pilate appeared the first time in a time of persecutions.

Were really the Christians embarrassed by Pilate killing Jesus? Or were the same Romans embarrassed in persecuting the followers of a Jew persecuted by Pilate?
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Giuseppe
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

Post by Giuseppe »

If I remember well, in this article available on jstor:

THE IMPORTANCE OF PONTIUS PILATE IN CREED AND GOSPEL
Stephen Liberty

...the author (a dogmatic historicist) makes the point that the emphasis on "he suffered under Pontius Pilate" increased more and more when the Christians faced the persecutions with more courage than before.

Accordingly, I see some analogy with the Couchoud's view about the name of Pilate emerging in a time of persecutions.

Again: why? What was the political advantage of having Pilate as factor unifying the belief of all the Christians before the Roman authorities?

I think that the political utility of "he suffered under Pilate" is to show the Christians as an unified church before the Empire. Insofar the Jesus was not connected with Pilate, the Christians were divided: anyone had his own Jesus. Once the link was introduced by a continue propaganda, the Christians appeared as more united than they were before.

The Acts of Apostles witnessed this riotous diversity about the identity of Jesus when they mention a magus named Elimas Bar-Iesus. The coincidence of having "Jesus", the same nomen sacrum, in the patronimic of a rival exorcist, is too much impossible to be a true coincidence, therefore it is not a coincidence: the point of Acts is that the real sin of Elimas is to preach in the name of a Jesus who was not crucified by Pilate.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

Post by Giuseppe »

Possibly I am ispired here by contemporary events:

I hear about some nations wanting enter in the NATO, now even more to not end as the Ukraina in future.

If my comparison is correct, then so also the Christians entered in the orbit of the link Jesus/Pilate in order to show themselves as one body before the imperial persecutions.
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

Post by davidlau17 »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:01 pm If I remember well, in this article available on jstor:

THE IMPORTANCE OF PONTIUS PILATE IN CREED AND GOSPEL
Stephen Liberty

...the author (a dogmatic historicist) makes the point that the emphasis on "he suffered under Pontius Pilate" increased more and more when the Christians faced the persecutions with more courage than before.

Accordingly, I see some analogy with the Couchoud's view about the name of Pilate emerging in a time of persecutions.

Again: why? What was the political advantage of having Pilate as factor unifying the belief of all the Christians before the Roman authorities?

I think that the political utility of "he suffered under Pilate" is to show the Christians as an unified church before the Empire. Insofar the Jesus was not connected with Pilate, the Christians were divided: anyone had his own Jesus. Once the link was introduced by a continue propaganda, the Christians appeared as more united than they were before.
The original Nicene Creed of 325 did not mention Pontius Pilate. "He was crucified under Pontius Pilate" was one of the additions made to the Creed at Constantinople in 381. It seems to me that this would indicate that Pilate did not become an important unifying factor for the Church until the year 381.
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

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Giuseppe wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 11:53 am ... Pliny ignores Pilate while Tacitus hears the name of Pilate (obviously hearing it from the Christians) ...
Not necessarily. The relevant sentence or part of that sentence in Tacitus Annals 15.44 might not be original, so reference to Pilate might not have existed in Justin's time ("who was crucified under Pontius Pilate" in 2 Apology 6 might also be an interpolation; as might be Pilate's name in the incipit of Marcion's Evangelion-gospeltext).


For numberless demoniacs...many of our Christian men exorcising them in the name of Jesus Christ...have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the possessing devils out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs

This raises the prospect of the changing characterisation of daimones and the development of demons which, while such changing characterisation had been happening since Plato, likely increased and even changed course from around Justin's time.

The following is slightly edited and reordered from M David Litwa (2021) Posthuman Transformation in Ancient Mediterranean Thought: Becoming Angels and Demons, Cambridge University Press; pp.8-14


When Christian theologians were at their most defensive* in the face of Hellenic culture (between the second and fifth centuries CE), they did their best to depict daimones as what modern people call “demons.” But this adaptation of earlier discourses (quite intentionally) distorted and simplified Greek conceptions.

... * [ I would say they were often on the offensive ie. seeking to co-opt and rewrite Hellenic and other cultures ]

To explain daimones, ancient Jews and Christians devised sinister origin stories that borrowed elements from Ancient Near eastern and Greek lore. Daimones were said to be the ghosts of ancient giants. These giants were originally the offspring of angels who mated with mortal women (thus forging a genetic connection between angels and daimones). Later, daimones were directly envisioned as fallen angels led by an originally angelic lord, Lucifer. In time, daimones began to be depicted in the guise of Greek satyrs: shaggy-legged rogues with little horns and pointy beards. These daimones wielded pitchforks to prod naked sinners into the fiery chasms of hell. Needless to say, Greek daimones originally had little to do with these fiends. Thus it will be helpful to bracket everything one has learned about later Christian demonology and start afresh.


The Nature of Daimones

For Plato, daimones were beings of middling status – higher than humanity but not fully fledged gods. They are spiritual ferry-men, shuttling up the prayers of humans and conveying gifts from above. Daimones controlled the apparatus of state and personal religion, which in Plato’s day dealt with prophecies, sacrifices, initiations, and spells.

The pseudo-Platonic Epinomis (late fourth century BCE) distinguished at least two classes of daimones, both translucent. The first is made of air, the other of ether (the fiery, refined air of the upper atmosphere). The author described them as wondrously intelligent, heaven-dwellers, and quick learners who, fully understand the human disposition, wondrously welcoming those of us who are noble and good, but despising evil people as already affected by grief ... When the heaven became full of living beings, daimones began to serve as go-betweens amongst themselves and the highest gods on behalf of all people and with regard to all things, since these middling beings fly to earth and soar through the whole heaven with a nimble whoosh.

The hybrid quality of daimones was aptly expressed by Apuleius, an African Platonist (about 125–170 CE):

Daimones are types of living beings, rational by nature, emotive in disposition, aerial in body, eternal in time. Of these five qualities, the first three they share with humans, the fourth is peculiar to them, the last they share with the immortal gods, though they differ from these with respect to their emotive nature.

Daimones, Apuleius said elsewhere, were capable, like humans, “of suffering by anger, being inclined to pity, allured by gifts, appeased by prayers, exasperated by offenses, soothed by honors, and changed by all other things in the same way that we are.”

... the philosopher Thales (about 625–546 BCE) [had been] the first to establish a classification of gods, daimones, and heroes. He called heroes good or evil souls separated from the body; daimones, in turn, he named “soul substances.”

The Roman writer Varro (116–27 BCE) identified both heroes and daimones (here called genii) with aerial souls (aerias animas).

Daimones and Heroes

The Greek polymath Plutarch (about 50–120 CE) proposed that virtuous humans first become heroes then daimones, suggesting both difference and evolutionary continuity.

During Late Antiquity (roughly 150–640 CE), there were disputes about whether daimones were formerly human or of a fixed nature. Usually the answer was both/and. There were, for instance, everlasting daimones who were never human, as well as human souls who became daimones in the course of their evolution.

Diogenes Laertius (early third century CE) reported that for the Stoics, daimones are overseers of human affairs, and heroes are the disembodied souls of virtuous people.

... daimonification in antiquity often blended with heroization ... both heroes and daimones were morally ambiguous – providing benefits and punishments at different times and for different reasons. Generally speaking, early Christian theologians simplified the spirit-world by saying that all daimones were bad. Although this simplification perdures, it never fully conquered the ancient (or modern) imagination. Indeed, it flew in the face of Platonic daimonology, which generally asserted that daimones, as part of the divine sphere, were good. Stories of malicious, punishing angels are, moreover, not hard to discover.

Daimones and Angels

Up until about the fourth century CE, Hellenic and Hellenized peoples regularly equated angels and daimones ...

About 175 CE, Celsus, a Platonist philosopher, equated “angels or other daimones”. Hermetic literature (first to third century CE) did not ontologically distinguish these two types of being. In the third century CE, the Roman writer Cornelius Labeo said that the beings he called daimones are identical with what other people named angels. The Christian writer Arnobius (about 255–330 CE) classified gods, daimones, and angels as intermediate natures below the supreme deity.

About the same time, the Platonist Porphyry spoke of “divine angels” and “good daimones” who oversee human deeds. By Porphyry’s time, angels were typically higher than daimones in the chain of being. Porphyry himself assigned them different regions: the lower air being the locus of daimones, the upper fiery air that of angels. But whether lower or higher on the chain of being, angels and daimones continued to exhibit a similar nature. They were beings of midgrade status, hybrid species with subtle bodies, super powers, and powerful emotions – much like superheroes today.

In this book, I do not treat all kinds of angels and daimones. I focus solely on how educated members of the elite imagined the transformation of humans into daimones and angels ... How angels and daimones relate to (the origin of) evil has already been studied at length.66

66 For evil daimones, see
. - G. J. Riley, “Demon,” in DDD 235–40; Lange, Lichtenberger and Römheld, eds., Die Dämonen;
. - Richard Valantasis, Making of the Self (Cambridge: James Clarke, 2008), 150-62;
. - David Brakke, Demons and the Making of the Monk (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2009);
. - Chris Keith and Loren T. Stuckenbruck, eds., Evil in Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity (Tubingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2016);
. - Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum, Daimon in Hellenistic Astrology (Leiden: Brill, 2016), 116–40;
. - Jörg Frey and Enno Edzard Popkes, Dualismus, Dämonologie und diabolische Figuren (Tubingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2018)


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Giuseppe
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

Post by Giuseppe »

Albert Kalthoff also thinks that the name of Pilate was introduced in a time of persecutions, the same trial story in the Gospels being based on the historical trial of the Christians by Pliny.

It can't be a coincidence that well 5 mythicists of great value (at least for me):
  • Albert Kalthoff
  • Paul-Louis Couchoud
  • Guy Fau
  • George Albert Wells
  • Alvar Ellegard
....agree on the fact that Pilate was introduced for diplomatic reasons, in a context of persecutions by Roman authorities.
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Giuseppe
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

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davidlau17 wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:35 pm It seems to me that this would indicate that Pilate did not become an important unifying factor for the Church until the year 381.
  • It was not only a question of showing themselves united before persecutions.
  • It was also a way to justify the current persecutions: if even Christ was persecuted by a Roman, then so also the present persecutions of Christians are justified. Evidently, the Christians didn't expect persecutions: the cognitive dissonance required a theological justification for such unexpected persecutions.
  • And last but not by least, the diplomatic reasons behind the choice of Pilate, in particular: to fix Jesus well distant from more turbolent times.
    Especially given the fact that the Christians were confused with Zealots by the Romans (which is probably the reason why Pliny is obliged to persecute them): if were they Zealots, then were they followers of a Christ killed during the First Jewish Revolt (66-70 CE)? The suspicion was legitimate and had to be dispelled.
ADDENDA:
Mark 13 confirms that the Christ was confused by the same Christians with the news about Zealot Messianists. And this precisely during the First Jewish Revolt.
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

Post by davidlau17 »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:12 am
davidlau17 wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 1:35 pm It seems to me that this would indicate that Pilate did not become an important unifying factor for the Church until the year 381.
  • It was not only a question of showing themselves united before persecutions.
  • It was also a way to justify the current persecutions: if even Christ was persecuted by a Roman, then so also the present persecutions of Christians are justified. Evidently, the Christians didn't expect persecutions: the cognitive dissonance required a theological justification for such unexpected persecutions.
  • And last but not by least, the diplomatic reasons behind the choice of Pilate, in particular: to fix Jesus well distant from more turbulent times.
    Especially given the fact that the Christians were confused with Zealots by the Romans (which is probably the reason why Pliny is obliged to persecute them): if were they Zealots, then were they followers of a Christ killed during the First Jewish Revolt (66-70 CE)? The suspicion was legitimate and had to be dispelled.
ADDENDA:
Mark 13 confirms that the Christ was confused by the same Christians with the news about Zealot Messianists. And this precisely during the First Jewish Revolt.
I think these are all good points.

Nevertheless, I think your final point (regarding the diplomatic reasons behind the choice of Pilate) is worth questioning a bit. Pilate was appointed governor two decades after Judas the Galilean's tax revolt, the beginnings of the Fourth Philosophy/Zealots/Sicarii, and Josephus gives us every indication that these decades were marred by turbulence.
Antiquities 18.1: All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire.

Pilate himself quelled a number of seditions. For example:
Antiquities 18:60: But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

Pilate was prefect at a time when zealous Messianic fervor was stewing in Judea. Thus, it is questionable whether fixing Jesus during the time of Pontius Pilate would distance the Jesus movement from the Zealot movement.
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Re: What confirmed to Justin that Jesus was crucified "under Pontius Pilate"

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True. However, there are two persuasive reasons to consider the argument from "diplomatic reasons" with the attention it would deserve:
  • Tacitus reported that "sub Tiberio quies";
  • Suetonius's "impulsore Chresto" makes it think that the Chrestus hated by the Romans was active under Claudius.
So, if we remove Vespasian's time (a turbolent time for the First Jewish Revolt),

If we remove Nero's time (a turbolent time for the Great Fire of Rome)

If we remove Claudius's time (a turbolent time for the "impulsor Chrestus")

...what remains is Tiberius's time (as the better time where to fix Jesus distant from more turbolent times), which gives us the name of Pilate.
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