JoeWallack wrote: ↑Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:11 am
JW:
What exactly does "Mark" (author) report that could support his presentation of Jesus crucified having a source of historical witness that was before Paul? From
The Skeptical Critical Commentary:
15:39
And when the centurion, who stood by over against him, saw that he so gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. (ASV)
Strong's | Transliteration | Greek | English | Morphology |
3708 [e] | Idōn | [1]Ἰδὼν | [1]having seen | V-APA-NMS |
1161 [e] | de | δὲ | moreover, | Conj |
3588 [e] | ho | ὁ | the | Art-NMS |
2760 [e] | kentyriōn | [2]κεντυρίων | [2]centurion | N-NMS |
3588 [e] | ho | ὁ | - | Art-NMS |
3936 [e] | parestēkōs | παρεστηκὼς | standing | V-RPA-NMS |
1537 [e] | ex | ἐξ | from | Prep |
1727 [e] | enantias | [3]ἐναντίας | [3]opposite of | Adj-GFS |
846 [e] | autou | αὐτοῦ | him, | PPro-GM3S |
3754 [e] | hoti | ὅτι | that | Conj |
3779 [e] | houtōs | οὕτως | thus | Adv |
1606 [e] | exepneusen | ἐξέπνευσεν, | he breathed his last, | V-AIA-3S |
3004 [e] | eipen | εἶπεν | said, | V-AIA-3S |
230 [e] | Alēthōs | Ἀληθῶς | Truly | Adv |
3778 [e] | houtos | οὗτος | this | DPro-NMS |
3588 [e] | ho | ὁ | - | Art-NMS |
444 [e] | anthrōpos | ἄνθρωπος | man | N-NMS |
5207 [e] | Huios | Υἱὸς | Son | N-NMS |
2316 [e] | Theou | Θεοῦ | of God | N-GMS |
1510 [e] | ēn | [4]ἦν. | [4]was! | V-IIA-3S |
Commentary:
[1]The offending word is "see" often with a figurative meaning = perceived/understood.
http://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm
Note the same word is used in the Parable of the Sower which provides the key to the entire Gospel (I know this is sow because "Mark" (author) says sow):
4:12
that seeing they may see, and not perceive
"Mark's" point is that people see literally but they do not see figuratively (understand). "Mark's" primary theme is illustrating this with the supposed disciples. They see literally but do not understand and the related failure is directly proportional to the quantity of literal seeing. The closer they are literally/physically to Jesus, the less they understand (Peter/Simon). This point is contrasted with the opposite relationship. Those not literally/physically close to Jesus do "see" (understand). They may be
far away or opposite as opposed to with.
[2]"Mark" uses a Latin word for the centurion. Strange/bizarre/macabre that a Greek work about an Aramaic setting would throw in a Latin word. The other Gospellers thought so as no one else used it. Further support that the equally strange identification of one of the sons of replacement Simon having a Latin name within the Passion (try to find a Latin name before the Passion) is a Literary touch.
[3]Another word, often with a figurative meaning ("Mark" uses a lot of those) = Opposed.
Here the only properly placed witness to Jesus' crucifixion is someone who had never literally seen Jesus before or at least before he took his vow of silence back when Jesus was a Talker (
I don't think The Hound would have liked Jesus very much).
[4]Hmm, so Jesus spends his entire career (so to speak) trying to convince those that literally are with him and physically see everything, to understand, and fails. In contrast, the opposition, Latin, never saw any Teaching & Healing Ministry but is placed to understand the significance of the supposed crucifixion. Unlike the Disciples who literally/physically heard (repeatedly, so to speak) Jesus' instruction to proclaim him after the crucifixion, the Latin from SonofManHatin, without ever literally/physically hearing Jesus' instructions, proclaims Jesus as Son of God after the crucifixion.
Sadly a portion of CBS (Christian Bible Scholarship) postures that the Centurion is being sarcastic and the Christian translations mistranslate the offending word as "see" instead of "perceive"/"understand". Obviously they want the Disciples to be the supposed first historical witness here and not an unidentified Latin crucifier. But the specific word used and "Mark's" theme support that the Centurion is truly serious.
Finally (so to speak), the last word is in imperfect form and I wonder if it should be translated as "is", "this man
is son of God"? Truly that would fit Paul's theology.
Bonus material for Solo. "Mark" is careful to only use "ἐναντίας" one other time in a very critical passage (so to speak). Start with the conclusion that it supports this post and than tell us how.
Reaction of ancient witness:
Matthew 27:54
Now the centurion, and they that were with him watching Jesus, when they saw the earthquake, and the things that were done, feared exceedingly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. (ASV)
Matthew 27:54
Strong's | Transliteration | Greek | English | Morphology |
3588 [e] | HO | [1]Ὁ | - | Art-NMS |
1161 [e] | de | δὲ | moreover | Conj |
1543 [e] | hekatontarchos | [2]ἑκατόνταρχος | [2][the] centurion | N-NMS |
2532 [e] | kai | καὶ | and | Conj |
3588 [e] | hoi | [3]οἱ | [3]those | Art-NMP |
3326 [e] | met’ | μετ’ | with | Prep |
846 [e] | autou | αὐτοῦ | him | PPro-GM3S |
5083 [e] | tērountes | [4]τηροῦντες | [4]keeping guard over | V-PPA-NMP |
3588 [e] | ton | τὸν | - | Art-AMS |
2424 [e] | Iēsoun | Ἰησοῦν | [6]Jesus, | N-AMS |
3708 [e] | idontes | [7]ἰδόντες | [7]having seen | V-APA-NMP |
3588 [e] | ton | τὸν | the | Art-AMS |
4578 [e] | seismon | σεισμὸν | earthquake | N-AMS |
2532 [e] | kai | καὶ | and | Conj |
3588 [e] | ta | τὰ | the things | Art-ANP |
1096 [e] | genomena | γενόμενα* | taking place, | V-APM/P-ANP |
5399 [e] | ephobēthēsan | [8]ἐφοβήθησαν | [8]feared | V-AIP-3P |
4970 [e] | sphodra | σφόδρα, | greatly, | Adv |
3004 [e] | legontes | λέγοντες | saying, | V-PPA-NMP |
230 [e] | Alēthōs | Ἀληθῶς | Truly | Adv |
2316 [e] | Theou | Θεοῦ | God's | N-GMS |
5207 [e] | Huios | Υἱὸς | Son | N-NMS |
1510 [e] | ēn | ἦν | was | V-IIA-3S |
3778 [e] | houtos | οὗτος. | this. | DPro-NMS |
Commentary:
[1]"Matthew" starts the offending verse with the definite article and noun. "Mark" starts the verse with a verb and ends with a verb = "Understood, is! (son of God)". Bad grammar or style?
[2]"Matthew" uses the Greek word for "centurion". "Mark's" word sounds more like "Kyrēnaion" and "Kurious".
[3]"Matthew" has incarnated multiple guards (witnesses).
[4]Witnesses is not the only thing expanding here. The word has a primary meaning of "guard" and in the context of a centurion and crucifixion, must mean "guard". Some Christian translations try to expand the meaning to non-guards also "watching" (up close).
[5]"Matthew" exorcises the figurative "opposite".
[6]"Mark" does not want "Jesus" in his Passion (he wants "that man"). "Matthew" wants Jesus in his Passion.
[7]"Matthew" uses the offending source word but changes the meaning via context from "Mark's" figurative usage (understood) to a literal one (saw).
[8]"Matthew" goes Old Testament School here by adding "feared" which in The Jewish Bible is a sign of respect for God. A major part of "Mark's" irony though is that he uses it as the sign of a lack of faith. Hence, for the Centurion's confession of faith, "Mark" exorcised "fear".
We can see above "Matthew's" attempt to edit his source into a more historical sounding affair with better potential supposed historical witness.
Joseph
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