The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:20 am The entire gospel of Marcion is filled with midrash and pesharim of the scriptures.
I don't think "the entire gospel" was "filled" with OT allusions. But Marcion, like other "gnostics", did use the Jewish Scriptures as a springboard from which to argue against the Creator God of those scriptures.

I don't know if there is any evidence for a gospel narrative prior to Marcion.
ABuddhist
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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neilgodfrey wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:46 am I don't know if there is any evidence for a gospel narrative prior to Marcion.
What would you say about the narrative which Paul alludes to, in which Jesus was handed over after a meal during which he blessed the food and drink, was crucified, and was resurrected? I assume that Paul predates Marcion (as, I think, do almost all people placing Paul during Marcion's century).
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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ABuddhist wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:03 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:46 am I don't know if there is any evidence for a gospel narrative prior to Marcion.
What would you say about the narrative which Paul alludes to, in which Jesus was handed over after a meal during which he blessed the food and drink, was crucified, and was resurrected? I assume that Paul predates Marcion (as, I think, do almost all people placing Paul during Marcion's century).
Paul gives us no narrative. He gives us points of doctrine, items of belief. There is no narrative associated with Jesus being delivered up, nor with the crucifixion nor the resurrection.

The notion that Paul is alluding to a narrative in such statements only arises when we read Paul through the eyes of the gospels. Doherty summed all of that up pretty well.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:46 am I don't think "the entire gospel" was "filled" with OT allusions.
Looking quickly at the first two sections of Marcion (without really caring about the dialogues which also contain many allusions), i note all these allusions, midrashim and pesharim.
If someone were to go through the entire text of Marcion in detail, he would certainly find many more.
This is problematic in my opinion for the theory that Mark added allusions to the OT to contradict Marcion.

  • [25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah,
    when the heaven was shut up three years and six months,
    when great famine was throughout all the land;
    26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon,
    unto a woman that was a widow.
    27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet;
    and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.]
    (1 Kings 17:8-24)

  • 12 And it came to pass, behold a man full of leprosy:
    who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying,
    Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
    13 And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying,
    I will: be thou clean.
    And immediately the leprosy departed from him.

    14 And he charged him to tell no man:
    but go, and shew thyself to the priest,
    and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded,
    that this may be a testimony to you. (2 Kings 5:1-17)
  • 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first,
    that he went through the corn fields;
    and his disciples plucked the ears of corn,
    and did eat, rubbing them in their hands.
    2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them,
    Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?
    3 And Jesus answering them said,
    Have ye not read so much as this, what David did,
    when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

    4 How he went into the house of God,
    and did take and eat the shewbread,
    and gave also to them that were with him;
    which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? (1 Samuel 21:6)
  • 6:12 And it came to pass in those days,
    that he went out into a mountain to pray,
    and continued all night in prayer to God.
    13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples:
    and of them he chose twelve
    , whom also he named apostles; (Deuteronomy 1:23)
  • 17 And he came down among them, and stood in the plain,
    and the company of his disciples,
    and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem,
    and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him,
    and to be healed of their diseases;

    18 And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.
    19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him,
    and healed them all. (Zechariah 8:22-23)
  • Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard;
    how that the blind see, the lame walk,
    the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear,
    the dead are raised,
    to the poor have good tidings been announced to them.
    (Isaiah 61:1)
  • 23 But as they sailed he fell asleep.
    And there came down a storm of wind on the lake;
    and they were filling with water, and were in jeopardy.
    24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying,
    Teacher, Teacher, we perish.
    And he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water.

    And they ceased, and there was a calm.
    25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith?
    And they were frightened and wondered,
    saying one to another, Who then is this?
    for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him? (Jonah 1:4-16)
  • 13 But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat.
    And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes;
    except we should go and buy food for all this people.
    14 For they were about five thousand men.
    And he said to his disciples, Make them recline in companies by fifties.
    15 And they did so, and made them all recline.
    16 And he took the five loaves and the two fishes,
    and looking up to heaven, he blessed them,
    and brake,and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.
    17 And they did eat, and were all filled:
    and there was taken up that remained to them of fragments twelve baskets.
    (2 Kings 4:38-44)
  • 28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings,
    he took Peter and John and James,
    and went up into a mountain to pray.
    29 And [it came to past] as he prayed,
    the appearance of his countenance was different,

    and his raiment white, flashing like lightning.
    30 And, behold, there stood with him two men, which were Moses and Elias,
    31 seen in his glory. (Exodus 24:15-16 + Daniel 7)
  • 10: 1 And after these things the Lord appointed other seventy also,
    and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place,
    whither he himself was about to come.
    2 Therefore said he unto them,
    The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few:
    pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest,
    that he may send forth labourers into his harvest.
    3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
    4 Carry neither purse, nor wallet, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
    5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
    6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it:
    if not, it shall turn to you again.
    7 And in the same house remain,
    eating and drinking such things as they give:
    for the labourer is worthy of his hire.
    Go not from house to house.
    8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you,
    eat such things as are set before you:
    9 And heal the sick therein, and say unto them,
    The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
    10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not,
    go out into the streets thereof, and say,
    11 Even the very dust of your city, which clave to us,
    we do wipe off against you:
    notwithstanding be ye sure of this,
    that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
    (Numbers 11:16 + Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

Of possible interest for a first answer to Sinohue's objections.

Note in particular the reference to the Gospel of Judah, and the use of the expression "cynical way" to describe the strategy of an anti-demiurgist in using the Jewish scriptures against themselves.

It surely doesn't resolve all the doubts. Which is the reason why I expect with impatience a commentary of Mcn by prof Vinzent.

Verse after verse.

It would be disgraceful for the entire humanity, I fear, if prof Vinzent was not able to publish the commentary before his death.
lsayre
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by lsayre »

Is there definitive evidence for the existence of a corpus of Pauline Epistles prior to Marcion?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 5:38 am If someone were to go through the entire text of Marcion in detail, he would certainly find many more.
This is problematic in my opinion for the theory that Mark added allusions to the OT to contradict Marcion.
Like you, I"ve long held the same objection, but I'm beginning to think I've only had half the story.

On a second reading of Marcion's gospel a good number of those allusions become far harder to grasp if we try to avoid reading Marcion through what we know of the Gospel of Mark. It's the same question that arises when we read Paul through the canonical gospels. Take those out and we have a very different view of what Paul was saying. If we read Paul looking for gospel allusions we will find many more than if we read Paul for what he himself says and in the broader context of ideas of the time. The motifs that we tend to default to a source in Jewish Scriptures are as easily borrowed from other Jewish (e.g. Philo) and non-Jewish writings of the day, and that includes the metaphor of crucifixion.

At the same time, though, there are clear references to the Jewish Scriptures in Marcion's gospel. It's a question I am still exploring, but I am influenced in my current approach in particular by Birger Pearson's discussion of gnostic origins. If Marcion was part of the "movement" (I use the term loosely) that was rejecting the Jewish god and his writings, then, like those early seeds of gnosticism, the work of Marcion, too, takes motifs from Jewish scriptures but does so in a way to turn them against the Jewish god.

Gnosticism traces its roots back to exegetes who quoted Jewish scriptures not to endorse them by means of allegorical reinterpretation but to take them literally and to advertise the moral superiority of the higher God.

The reaction of the canonical authors to Marcion was not to introduce and replace Marcion's gospel by the introduction of a Jewish Scripture midrash etc, but to claim the story in a way that reclaimed the Jewish Scriptures as a "prophetic foundation" for their faith. Marcion appears to have used the Scriptures to draw attention to the superiority of the god of Jesus.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

lsayre wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:40 am Is there definitive evidence for the existence of a corpus of Pauline Epistles prior to Marcion?
There is no external or independent attestation of Paul's letters, whether as a corpus or singly, before the second century. The dating of Paul's letters relies upon "making them fit the best explanation" and internal evidence (e.g. Galatian's reference to Jerusalem pillars). The "primitive" nature of the church assemblies that comes through the Pauline epistles is also used as an indicator of an early dating. (There are apparent allusions or quotations of some parts of Paul in supposedly early writings but that gets us into the problem of circular reasoning.)

I am sure that our versions of the Pauline corpus are a second-century product, but I am still confused about the origin of Paul and the idea of his letters so remain open to him and them being products of the mid-first century. Why did anyone care about letters from Paul in the second century? I don't know how to answer that question without positing a renowned figure of an earlier time. But that brings us up against the problem of Paul having been forgotten and quickly having become a nobody after his death if we are looking for evidence to the contrary. I am reminded of that cartoon where scientists are looking at this complex set of calculations on a blackboard and one of them points to a circle in the middle that says "a miracle happens here" and remarks in effect, "I think we need more detailed clarity at this point". I wonder if that mysterious "miracle' gap in the question of Paul in our scenarios is the elusive Marcion.
ABuddhist
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by ABuddhist »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 1:38 pm I wonder if that mysterious "miracle' gap in the question of Paul in our scenarios is the elusive Marcion.
If I recall correctly, certain people have theorized that Marcion may have been a fiction (or a misunderstanding of references to Mark). Are you more familiar with such arguments than I am?
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:48 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:22 am
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:45 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:42 am Great, it may interest readers who don't read French. For my part, being French, I would be more comfortable to read it in its original language. I received it, I will certainly read it after I finish the one on 2 Enoch.
Sinohue, can you upload a day the French original book Jésus, Le dieu fait homme on archive.org? I would like a lot to read the original nuances of Couchoud in the original language!

I will upload in whiletime Couchoud's another book, Histoire de Jésus.
Do i need to scan the book to upload it on archive.org ? I don't have a scanner. But i can take pictures if you need some pages.
Has this all been sorted out? (Otherwise, I have the software to combine and ocr scanned/photographed images into a single pdf, if that helps.)
Just for the record, this project has not been forgotten. It is taking a little time to complete since each page needs to be individually processed by this method. Will upload the finished product here and on archive.org when complete.
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