The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:10 am I had thought I posted a question relating to this point some time back but cannot see what I thought I posted so I will try again -- do excuse me if I have missed an earlier reply.
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:20 pm
I think you are right that the original meaning of the verse is "like a lion...". But as you know, the word in Hebrew is very close to the word "pierced", which could have misled some scribes. This would explain why we find the form "pierced" in the Greek translation or in the Nahal Hever manuscript.
My question remains, though -- What and where is the Greek word that means "pierced" in Ps. 22:17?

An earlier post linked to a Mormon article professing belief in God and the meaning of the Greek word as "pierced", but it lacked any supporting evidence for the claim.
Underlined in blue :
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I do not deny that the original text should certainly be the verse that we have in the massoretic text but we have the Septuagint and the manucript of Nahal Hever (Even if the text is in bad condition) which uses "pierced". I don't see why it should be a fraud. A bad translation/transcription yes. A fraud, I’m not sure.

Also i mentioned the prophetic text of Zechariah 12:10 which mentions a pierced man and which John uses to his advantage in the passion for the crucifixion

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/zechariah/12-10.htm

John 19:37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]

it might be an interesting idea too.

L’argumentum a silentio in Paul concerning the crucifixion is not really relevant . He tells us that Jesus died and rose again after 3 days according to the scriptures but we still don't know 2000 years later which scripture it is.

Paul and Mark were not very precise with their scriptural references.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:10 am
My question remains, though -- What and where is the Greek word that means "pierced" in Ps. 22:17?

An earlier post linked to a Mormon article professing belief in God and the meaning of the Greek word as "pierced", but it lacked any supporting evidence for the claim.

Ps 22:16 has pierced : Ps 21.16 in the LXX/Septuagint


16 ὅτι ἐκύκλωσάν με κύνες πολλοί, συναγωγὴ πονηρευομένων περιέσχον με· ὤρυξαν χεῖράς μου καὶ πόδας.

16 For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 They counted all my bones; and they observed and looked upon me.

17ἐξηρίθμησαν πάντα τὰ ὀστᾶ μου· αὐτοὶ δὲ κατενόησαν καὶ ἐπεῖδόν με.

https://biblehub.com/sep/psalms/22.htm
https://biblehub.com/sepd/psalms/22.htm



In Hebrew, via https://biblehub.com/text/psalms/22-16.htm

כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י
kā-’ă-rî


From Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have ... 16_(21:17) -


The oldest surviving manuscript of the psalm comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls, first discovered in 1947. Significantly, the 5/6 H. ev–Sev4Ps Fragment 11 of Psalm 22 contains the crucial word in the form of what some have suggested may be a third person plural verb, written כארו (“pierced/dug”). This may suggest that the Septuagint translation preserved the meaning of the original Hebrew. This rendering is present in a minority of manuscripts of the Masoretic text.

Aquila of Sinope...undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".



fwiw, Zechariah 12:10 is about 'Him Whom They Have Pierced' :


10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

10 καὶ ἐκχεῶ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Δαυεὶδ καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας Ἰερουσαλὴμ πνεῦμα χάριτος καὶ οἰκτιρμοῦ· καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται πρὸς μὲ ἀνθ᾽ ὧν κατωρχήσαντο, καὶ κόψονται ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν κοπετὸν ὡς ἐπ᾽ ἀγαπητῷ, καὶ ὀδυνηθήσονται ὀδύνην ὡς ἐπὶ τῷ πρωτοτόκῳ.

https://biblehub.com/sepd/zechariah/12.htm


eta: an alternative English translation of Zech 12:10


και .... εκχεώ ...... επί .. ον ..οίκον..Δαυίδ και . επί .. τους κατοικούντας...Ιερουσαλήμ πνεύμα χάριτος και οικτιρμού
And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the ones dwelling [in] Jerusalem a spirit of favour and compassion.

και επιβλέψονται προς με ανθ΄ ων .. κατωρχήσαντο
And they shall look to me because they treated me despitefully;

.και . κόψονται .... επ . αυτώ .. κοπετόν
and they shall beat over him with a beating of the breast,

ως ..επ΄.. αγαπητώ
as over a beloved one;

και..οδυνηθήσονται, .. οδύνην . ως επί τω πρωτοτόκω.
and they shall grieve, with grief as over the first-born.

https://studybible.info/interlinear/Zechariah%2012


lsayre
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by lsayre »

All of the provided examples seem to me to support that GMark was merely an outline, and that GMarcion was the more refined and finished product. This would mean that Matthew and Luke copied the finished product to a somewhat greater degree in some instances vs. copying the unintentionally released outline which we now know as Mark (albeit that this outline edition was also at their disposal for copying purposes).
Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

lsayre wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 7:09 am All of the provided examples seem to me to support that GMark was merely an outline, and that GMarcion was the more refined and finished product.
No, the exact contrary is true: Mcn was a less refined story and Mark refined it again and again. Klinghardt is clear on this point.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by MrMacSon »

Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:14 pm I would like to look into the subject and read a book, if possible a recent one, which presents it as older than Mark. If you have an idea for a book, don't hesitate :cheers:
The best book is probably Matthias Klinghardt's The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels: Inquiry. Reconstruction - Translation - Variants (English) or Das älteste Evangelium und die Entstehung der kanonischen Evangelien: Band I: Untersuchung | Band II: Rekonstruktion, Übersetzung, Varianten, (German). See https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&r ... _sr_book_3
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:42 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:10 am I had thought I posted a question relating to this point some time back but cannot see what I thought I posted so I will try again -- do excuse me if I have missed an earlier reply.
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:20 pm
I think you are right that the original meaning of the verse is "like a lion...". But as you know, the word in Hebrew is very close to the word "pierced", which could have misled some scribes. This would explain why we find the form "pierced" in the Greek translation or in the Nahal Hever manuscript.
My question remains, though -- What and where is the Greek word that means "pierced" in Ps. 22:17?

An earlier post linked to a Mormon article professing belief in God and the meaning of the Greek word as "pierced", but it lacked any supporting evidence for the claim.
Underlined in blue : 6F1F4851-DF9A-4B0B-BC0B-FB7057E9315A.jpeg

I do not deny that the original text should certainly be the verse that we have in the massoretic text but we have the Septuagint and the manucript of Nahal Hever (Even if the text is in bad condition) which uses "pierced". I don't see why it should be a fraud. A bad translation/transcription yes. A fraud, I’m not sure.

Also i mentioned the prophetic text of Zechariah 12:10 which mentions a pierced man and which John uses to his advantage in the passion for the crucifixion

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/zechariah/12-10.htm

John 19:37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]

it might be an interesting idea too.

L’argumentum a silentio in Paul concerning the crucifixion is not really relevant . He tells us that Jesus died and rose again after 3 days according to the scriptures but we still don't know 2000 years later which scripture it is.

Paul and Mark were not very precise with their scriptural references.
Thanks, Sinhoue. I am not raising any question of fraud. My quibble relates to what I read by a good number of scholars raising the question of whether "pierced" is the correct English translation of the Greek word that we find.

The idea of piercing --- showing hands and feet with nail wounds, the reference to Zech 12:10, the specific mention of piercing -- all of that seems to come late (Gospels of Luke, Peter and John) and is not part of the earliest narrative. (Though "pierced" in John is as likely to bring to mind the spear thrust into the side of Jesus.)
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Fri May 27, 2022 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 4:13 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:10 am
My question remains, though -- What and where is the Greek word that means "pierced" in Ps. 22:17?

An earlier post linked to a Mormon article professing belief in God and the meaning of the Greek word as "pierced", but it lacked any supporting evidence for the claim.

Ps 22:16 has pierced : Ps 21.16 in the LXX/Septuagint


16 ὅτι ἐκύκλωσάν με κύνες πολλοί, συναγωγὴ πονηρευομένων περιέσχον με· ὤρυξαν χεῖράς μου καὶ πόδας.

16 For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 They counted all my bones; and they observed and looked upon me.

17ἐξηρίθμησαν πάντα τὰ ὀστᾶ μου· αὐτοὶ δὲ κατενόησαν καὶ ἐπεῖδόν με.

https://biblehub.com/sep/psalms/22.htm
https://biblehub.com/sepd/psalms/22.htm



In Hebrew, via https://biblehub.com/text/psalms/22-16.htm

כָּ֝אֲרִ֗י
kā-’ă-rî


From Wikipedia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have ... 16_(21:17) -


The oldest surviving manuscript of the psalm comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls, first discovered in 1947. Significantly, the 5/6 H. ev–Sev4Ps Fragment 11 of Psalm 22 contains the crucial word in the form of what some have suggested may be a third person plural verb, written כארו (“pierced/dug”). This may suggest that the Septuagint translation preserved the meaning of the original Hebrew. This rendering is present in a minority of manuscripts of the Masoretic text.

Aquila of Sinope...undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".



fwiw, Zechariah 12:10 is about 'Him Whom They Have Pierced' :


10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

10 καὶ ἐκχεῶ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Δαυεὶδ καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς κατοικοῦντας Ἰερουσαλὴμ πνεῦμα χάριτος καὶ οἰκτιρμοῦ· καὶ ἐπιβλέψονται πρὸς μὲ ἀνθ᾽ ὧν κατωρχήσαντο, καὶ κόψονται ἐπ᾽ αὐτὸν κοπετὸν ὡς ἐπ᾽ ἀγαπητῷ, καὶ ὀδυνηθήσονται ὀδύνην ὡς ἐπὶ τῷ πρωτοτόκῳ.

https://biblehub.com/sepd/zechariah/12.htm


eta: an alternative English translation of Zech 12:10


και .... εκχεώ ...... επί .. ον ..οίκον..Δαυίδ και . επί .. τους κατοικούντας...Ιερουσαλήμ πνεύμα χάριτος και οικτιρμού
And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the ones dwelling [in] Jerusalem a spirit of favour and compassion.

και επιβλέψονται προς με ανθ΄ ων .. κατωρχήσαντο
And they shall look to me because they treated me despitefully;

.και . κόψονται .... επ . αυτώ .. κοπετόν
and they shall beat over him with a beating of the breast,

ως ..επ΄.. αγαπητώ
as over a beloved one;

και..οδυνηθήσονται, .. οδύνην . ως επί τω πρωτοτόκω.
and they shall grieve, with grief as over the first-born.

https://studybible.info/interlinear/Zechariah%2012


"Pierced" is the English language translation. But one can find many articles addressing the problem with that interpretation/translation, and it is addressed again in the commentaries. Just a few that come quickly to hand....

Daiches, Samuel. “The Meaning of ‮יראב‬ in Psalm 22, v. 17.” Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, no. 2 (1933): 401–3. https://sci-hub.se/10.1017/s0035869x0007492x

Flowers, Michael V. “What Did the Psalmist Say about His Hands and Feet in Psalm 22:17?” Vetus Testamentum 71, no. 1 (August 11, 2020): 48–75. https://doi.org/10.1163/15685330-12341438.

Hopkin, Shon. “The Psalm 22:16 Controversy: New Evidence from the Dead Sea Scrolls.” Brigham Young University Studies 44, no. 3 (2005): 161–72. http://www.jstor.org/stable/43042971

Linville, James R. “Psalm 22:17b: A New Guess.” Journal of Biblical Literature 124, no. 4 (2005): 733–44. https://doi.org/10.2307/30041067.

Swenson, Kristin M. “Psalm 22:17: Circling around the Problem Again.” Journal of Biblical Literature 123, no. 4 (2004): 637. https://doi.org/10.2307/3268463.

Vall, Gregory. “Psalm 22:17B: ‘The Old Guess.’” Journal of Biblical Literature 116, no. 1 (1997): 45–56. https://doi.org/10.2307/3266745.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

couchoud part1-draft.pdf
(26.55 MiB) Downloaded 64 times
Here is stage one of Couchoud's Histoire de Jésus thanks to Giuseppe for supplying his phone snapshots of each page. It is technically readable by those who are motivated, but a long shot from the quality that would make it suitable for uploading to archive.org at this stage.

What is needed is a list of pages in this file that need replacements with better photos. I can insert and replace new pages easily enough. Is there anyone here interested enough to identify here pages that really should be replaced with something cleaner. I've been going cross-eyed from being too close to reading each page myself that I need a fresh set of eyes to identify the pages that need replacing.

Thanks
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

MrMacSon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:04 am
Sinouhe wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:14 pm I would like to look into the subject and read a book, if possible a recent one, which presents it as older than Mark. If you have an idea for a book, don't hesitate :cheers:
The best book is probably Matthias Klinghardt's The Oldest Gospel and the Formation of the Canonical Gospels: Inquiry. Reconstruction - Translation - Variants (English) or Das älteste Evangelium und die Entstehung der kanonischen Evangelien: Band I: Untersuchung | Band II: Rekonstruktion, Übersetzung, Varianten, (German). See https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&r ... _sr_book_3
Thanks :cheers:
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 3:34 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:42 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 3:10 am I had thought I posted a question relating to this point some time back but cannot see what I thought I posted so I will try again -- do excuse me if I have missed an earlier reply.
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:20 pm
I think you are right that the original meaning of the verse is "like a lion...". But as you know, the word in Hebrew is very close to the word "pierced", which could have misled some scribes. This would explain why we find the form "pierced" in the Greek translation or in the Nahal Hever manuscript.
My question remains, though -- What and where is the Greek word that means "pierced" in Ps. 22:17?

An earlier post linked to a Mormon article professing belief in God and the meaning of the Greek word as "pierced", but it lacked any supporting evidence for the claim.
Underlined in blue : 6F1F4851-DF9A-4B0B-BC0B-FB7057E9315A.jpeg

I do not deny that the original text should certainly be the verse that we have in the massoretic text but we have the Septuagint and the manucript of Nahal Hever (Even if the text is in bad condition) which uses "pierced". I don't see why it should be a fraud. A bad translation/transcription yes. A fraud, I’m not sure.

Also i mentioned the prophetic text of Zechariah 12:10 which mentions a pierced man and which John uses to his advantage in the passion for the crucifixion

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/zechariah/12-10.htm

John 19:37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”[d]

it might be an interesting idea too.

L’argumentum a silentio in Paul concerning the crucifixion is not really relevant . He tells us that Jesus died and rose again after 3 days according to the scriptures but we still don't know 2000 years later which scripture it is.

Paul and Mark were not very precise with their scriptural references.
Thanks, Sinhoue. I am not raising any question of fraud. My quibble relates to what I read by a good number of scholars raising the question of whether "pierced" is the correct English translation of the Greek word that we find.

The idea of piercing --- showing hands and feet with nail wounds, the reference to Zech 12:10, the specific mention of piercing -- all of that seems to come late (Gospels of Luke, Peter and John) and is not part of the earliest narrative. (Though "pierced" in John is as likely to bring to mind the spear thrust into the side of Jesus.)
It could have been used before by the first christians.
Again, Paul and Mark almost never give the scriptural references they use.
It is up to the reader to guess that Paul alludes to Isaiah 53 for the death and resurrection of Jesus. It's up to the reader to guess again that Mark uses the book of Kings and Elijah for the 40 days in the desert fed by the angels. He still lets the reader guess that he is using the account of Jonah for Jesus' calmed storm. Etc etc...
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