The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

[schillingklaus]

The idea that the Parables of Enoch were an influence on the New Testament is not new.
One problem is that unlike the other portions of 1 Enoch the Parables are not found at Qumran.
This may imply a late 1st century CE date which (depending on the dates of the New Testament documents) would limit influence of the parables on the New Testament.

No, it would not limit the influence, as the works of the NT are not prior to the second century.

Of course, the parables are a very late addition to Henoch as they depend explicitly on the rejection of the gnostic exegesis of Genesis 3.

[MrMacSon]

Moreover,

2.2 Dating the Parables of Enoch

. . . < . . snip . . >

2.2.2 Results

... narrowing the dating of Par. En., suggesting that Par. En. was written in the late first century bce or early first century ce.

This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005 ...

- - - - - - - -

Leslie W. Walck The Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch and in Matthew (Jewish and Christian Texts in Contexts and Related Studies Series), London/New York, T&T Clark, 2011, pp.15-16.

[Sinouhe]

This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005.As Paolo Sacchi noted in his summary, “in sum, we may observe those scholars who have directly addressed the problem of dating the Parables all agree on a date around the time of Herod . . . given the impressive amount of evidence gathered in support of a pre-Christian origin of the document. The burden of proof has now shifted to those who disagree with the Herodian date. It is now their responsibility to provide evidence that would reopen the discussion”.

@MrMacSon Thanks for that. That’s exactly what i was referring to.

[andrewcriddle]

This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005.As Paolo Sacchi noted in his summary, “in sum, we may observe those scholars who have directly addressed the problem of dating the Parables all agree on a date around the time of Herod . . . given the impressive amount of evidence gathered in support of a pre-Christian origin of the document. The burden of proof has now shifted to those who disagree with the Herodian date. It is now their responsibility to provide evidence that would reopen the discussion”.

@MrMacSon Thanks for that. That’s exactly what i was referring to.

The Herodian date may be right.

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran.
There are two possible explanations for this material being both pre-Christian and absent from the material preserved at Qumran.
a/ Pure accident (IMO unlikely)
b/ Disapproval of this material at Qumran. My problem here is that although the Parables have major differences from the rest of the \Enoch material they have significant links to other Qumran texts such as Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice so I think they would be acceptable at Qumran.

I would have no real problem with a date like that suggested by Suter of c 40 CE. Although written before the end of the Qumran community it might be too recent to have been copied at Qumran. But I have reservations about a date in the time of Herod the Great.

Andrew Criddle

[Sinouhe]

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran

One possibility would be that the parables were not written by the sect.
And if the sect had no engagement with the outside world at that time, then they didn’t have this new version of the text.
Only the old version without “the parables”.

[andrewcriddle]

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran

One possibility would be that the parables were not written by the sect.
And if the sect had no engagement with the outside world at that time, then they didn’t have this new version of the text.
Only the old version without “the parables”.

You may be right. But if a/ the author of the Parables used Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice and b/ Songs.. is a sectarian work, (both claims IMO probable but not certain), then the Parables probably are a work from the sect associated with Qumran.

Andrew Criddle

[Sinouhe]

I am still troubled by the absence of this material from Qumran

One possibility would be that the parables were not written by the sect.
And if the sect had no engagement with the outside world at that time, then they didn’t have this new version of the text.
Only the old version without “the parables”.

You may be right. But if a/ the author of the Parables used Songs of the Sabbath Sacrifice and b/ Songs.. is a sectarian work, (both claims IMO probable but not certain), then the Parables probably are a work from the sect associated with Qumran.

Andrew Criddle

Yes i think you’re right. I see some connections with the Enoch Celestial Messiah and 4Q471/4Q491.

And after all, Philo indicate the presence of Essenes in multiple cities, not only in Qumran.

[lsayre]

Within the Parables of Enoch this excerpt strikes me as rather Gnostic:

CHAPTER XLII.
1. Wisdom found no place where she might dwell;
Then a dwelling-place was assigned her in the heavens.

2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men,
And found no dwelling-place:

Wisdom returned to her place,
And took her seat among the angels.

3 And unrighteousness went forth from her chambers:
Whom she sought not she found,
And dwelt with them, p. 62

As rain in a desert
And dew on a thirsty land.

[DCHindley]

I've long liked this passage in Parables of Enoch too.

But, are you thinking of the myth of the Aeon Sophia?

I wouldn't think the association between the Sophia myth and this pericope is very strong, as there is not a hint that the pericope in Parables of Enoch has anything to do with a fallen Aeon and her rehabilitation by means of the rescue mission carried out by the specially anointed Aeon Stauros (Christ).

DCH

Within the Parables of Enoch this excerpt strikes me as rather Gnostic:

CHAPTER XLII.
1. Wisdom found no place where she might dwell;
Then a dwelling-place was assigned her in the heavens.

2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men,
And found no dwelling-place:

Wisdom returned to her place,
And took her seat among the angels.

3 And unrighteousness went forth from her chambers:
Whom she sought not she found,
And dwelt with them, p. 62

As rain in a desert
And dew on a thirsty land.

[Sinouhe]

Within the Parables of Enoch this excerpt strikes me as rather Gnostic:

CHAPTER XLII.
1. Wisdom found no place where she might dwell;
Then a dwelling-place was assigned her in the heavens.

2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men,
And found no dwelling-place:

Wisdom returned to her place,
And took her seat among the angels.

3 And unrighteousness went forth from her chambers:
Whom she sought not she found,
And dwelt with them, p. 62

As rain in a desert
And dew on a thirsty land.

Proverbs 8
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;(Y)
25 before the mountains were settled in place,(Z)
before the hills, I was given birth,(AA)
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.(AB)
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,(AC)
when he marked out the horizon(AD) on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above(AE)
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,(AF)
29 when he gave the sea its boundary(AG)
so the waters would not overstep his command,(AH)
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.(AI)
30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.(AJ)
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.(AK)
32 “Now then, my children, listen(AL) to me;
blessed are(AM) those who keep my ways.(AN)
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise;
do not disregard it.
34 Blessed are those who listen(AO) to me,
watching daily at my doors,
waiting at my doorway.
35 For those who find me(AP) find life(AQ)
and receive favor from the Lord.(AR)
36 But those who fail to find me harm themselves;(AS)
all who hate me love death.”(AT)

1 Corinthians 1:24
24 but to those whom God has called,(A) both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God(B) and the wisdom of God.(C

1 Corinthians 2:7
7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery(A) that has been hidden(B) and that God destined for our glory before time began