The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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Sinouhe
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The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

« The Book of Parables » in 1 Enoch uses the expression Son of Man for the eschatological protagonist, who is also called "Righteous One", "Chosen One", and "Messiah", and sits in heaven on the throne of glory in the final judgment.The first known use of The Son of Man as a definite title in Jewish writings is in 1 Enoch, and its use may have played a role in the early Christian understanding and use of the title.

According to the Enoch Seminar and the recent books on « the parables of Enoch », most of scholars date the text between 1st century BC and 1st century AD, before Christianity :
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Because it predates Christianity, some scholars are now studying the relation between « the parables of Enoch » and the gospels :
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But some scholars even suggest that Paul was familiar with the conceptual elements of the Enochic messiah, and that Paul developed his concept of the « Lord Jesus » out of the Son of Man traditions in the Book of the Parables.

As we know, Paul is not interested in the earthly Jesus, so we can even ask if Jesus was not strictly a Celestial Messiah.

In my opinion, all these books and theories about the influence of the book of parables on Paul and the gospels are strong arguments for the celestial Jesus theory.

Did someone here studied this particular subject of the Celestial Messiah in the parables ?
I plan to read all these books in the next few months.
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

When I have read:
all these books and theories about the influence of the book of parables on Paul and the gospels are strong arguments for the celestial Jesus theory.
...my first thought has been: Paul-Louis Couchoud strikes back!


Thanks! :cheers:
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:43 am When I have read:
all these books and theories about the influence of the book of parables on Paul and the gospels are strong arguments for the celestial Jesus theory.
...my first thought has been: Paul-Louis Couchoud strikes back!


Thanks! :cheers:
The books of Couchoud are very expensive here in France (out of print).
Can you recommend his best book on the subject ?
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

René Salm had uploaded the English translation:

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/09/ ... -uploaded/

I have the book Histoire de Jésus, that coincides quasi totally with Le Dieu fait homme (and has been published after the latter), the only difference is the different title and the fact that it doesn't have a very short paragraph about John the Baptist and the Mandeans (a recantation?).
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:46 am René Salm had uploaded the English translation:

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/09/ ... -uploaded/

I have the book Histoire de Jésus, that coincides quasi totally with Le Dieu fait homme


I just bought this one for 10€ on ebay :thumbup:
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:02 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:46 am René Salm had uploaded the English translation:

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/09/ ... -uploaded/

I have the book Histoire de Jésus, that coincides quasi totally with Le Dieu fait homme


I just bought this one for 10€ on ebay :thumbup:
I have also the last Couchoud's book, Le Dieu Jésus. I should upload it on archive.org, next summer, just I am more free from commitments.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:49 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:02 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:46 am René Salm had uploaded the English translation:

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/09/ ... -uploaded/

I have the book Histoire de Jésus, that coincides quasi totally with Le Dieu fait homme


I just bought this one for 10€ on ebay :thumbup:
I have also the last Couchoud's book, Le Dieu Jésus. I should upload it on archive.org, next summer, just I am more free from commitments.
It would be great yes. I can’t find it for a good price.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by andrewcriddle »

The idea that the Parables of Enoch were an influence on the New Testament is not new.
One problem is that unlike the other portions of 1 Enoch the Parables are not found at Qumran.
This may imply a late 1st century CE date which (depending on the dates of the New Testament documents) would limit influence of the parables on the New Testament.

Andrew Criddle
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:42 pm The idea that the Parables of Enoch were an influence on the New Testament is not new.
One problem is that unlike the other portions of 1 Enoch the Parables are not found at Qumran.
This may imply a late 1st century CE date which (depending on the dates of the New Testament documents) would limit influence of the parables on the New Testament.

Andrew Criddle
Sure, that's what i had thought until now.
But after the Enoch Seminar (http://enochseminar.org), things have changed and there is now a consensus among scholars to date the "parables of Enoch" before christianity.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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2.2 Dating the Parables of Enoch

A wide variation of dates has been argued for Par. En. R. H. Charles has argued for an early date of 94–79 bce,1 interpreting the “kings and the mighty ones” as the later Maccabean princes. But as Jonas Greenfield and Michael Stone2 and John J. Collins3 argue, the allusions to the Parthians and Medes and the healing waters of Callirhoe suggest a date after 40 bce.

Józef T. Milik4 argued for a date in the extreme opposite direction, around 270 bc, noting the absence of fragments of Par. En. from Qumran. But on linguistic, logical and theological grounds, Greenfield and Stone and Knibb5 have argued against such a late date. Theisohn also has shown the thoroughly Jewish character of the concept of the Son of Man,6 contradicting Milik’s hypothesis of a Christian influence, as in the Sibylline Oracles. Milik’s argument has not been widely accepted.

Christopher L. Mearns7 argued for a date prior to 40 ce, based on allusions to the Testament of Abraham (T. Ab.), recensions A and B, and messianic expectations in the New Testament, but his position seems to incur far too many assumptions. Against Mearns’ view, E. P. Sanders8 has argued for a later date for T. Ab. and has suggested that its allusions to the New Testament are the result of late redactional activity.

David Suter9 at one time dated Par. En. to the reign of Emperor Gaius (Caligula), 37–41 ce, assigning the major concern in Par. En. about bloodshed to that era. J. C. Hindley10 argued for a date in the early second century, identifying the allusions to the Parthians with Trajan’s Parthian campaigns in 113 ce. Knibb11 at one time favored a late first-century or early second-century date, due to the absence of fragments from Par. En. in Qumran, as well as for other reasons, although more recently he has indicated openness to an earlier date. Many have pointed out that the absence of Par. En. in Qumran is most likely purely accidental. Therefore the allusions to bloodshed, the Parthians and the healing hot springs need to be more carefully examined,12 to discover whether the earlier date for Par. En. is defensible. This must now be taken up.

2.2.1 Four Elements to be considered

In seeking to narrow the date of Par. En., four elements must be considered. These four elements arise out of the text of the Par. En. and they bear on the context in which the Par. En. came into existence. The four elements are:
  1. the identity of the kings and the mighty ones;
  2. the references to the blood of the righteous that has been shed;
  3. the threat of the Parthians and the Medes; and
  4. the reference to the healing hot springs
These four elements reveal social and historical realities, in a general way, and yet taken together are specific enough that they can narrow the possibilities. Par. En. cannot be dated precisely, but these four elements do point in general to a particular period as the most likely date for Par. En.
. . . < . . snip . . >

2.2.2 Results

The dating of Par. En. then, can be narrowed by a consideration of these four elements: the kings and mighty ones, the bloodshed, the Parthians and Medes, and the hot springs. These elements reveal social and historical realities in a general way. And yet the realities discerned in these allusions narrow the possibilities for the dating of Par. En. Herod perhaps even served as the model for Par. En’s depiction of the kings and the mighty ones. Herod could be charged with idolatry, and bloodshed. He came to power in conjunction with the Parthian invasion in the middle of the century, and fell prey to intense, tragic, familial mistrust. He also sought relief in the hot springs, but ironically found none, and soon afterward died of his ailments (4 bce). While Herod might have been the model for the author, he was only a model, since the author betrays no details that are specific enough to link these descriptions directly and only to Herod. Thus, these four elements are helpful in narrowing the dating of Par. En., suggesting that Par. En. was written in the late first century bce or early first century ce.

This dating was confirmed by a broad consensus of scholars at the Third Enoch Seminar
in Camaldoli, Italy in June of 2005.42 As Paolo Sacchi noted in his summary, “in sum, we may observe those scholars who have directly addressed the problem of dating the Parables all agree on a date around the time of Herod . . . given the impressive amount of evidence gathered in support of a pre-Christian origin of the document. The burden of proof has now shifted to those who disagree with the Herodian date. It is now their responsibility to provide evidence that would reopen the discussion”.43

- - - - - - - -

Leslie W. Walck The Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch and in Matthew, Jewish and Christian Texts in Contexts and Related Studies, London/New York, T&T Clark, 2011, pp.15-16.

- - - - - - - -

1 R.H. Charles, The Book of Enoch or I Enoch (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1912) liv-lv, 67.
...See also the summary of the positions in Christopher L. Mearns, “Dating the Similitudes of Enoch,” NTS 25 (1978–79) 360.
2 Jonas C. Greenfield, and Michael E. Stone, “The Enochic Pentateuch and the Date of the Similitudes,” HTR 70 (1977) 51–65.
3 John J. Collins, The Apocalyptic Imagination (New York: Crossroad, 1984) 142f referring to Josephus, Ant. 17.6.5. §§171–73; J.W. 1.33.5 §§657–58.
4 J. T. Milik, The Books of Enoch: Aramaic Fragments of Qumrân Cave 4 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1976) 89–107.
5 Michael A. Knibb, “The Date of the Parables of Enoch: A Critical Review,” NTS 25 (1978–79), 344–59.
6 Theisohn, Der auserwählte Richter, 29–30, 99.
7 Christopher L. Mearns, “Dating the Similitudes of Enoch,” NTS 25 (1978–79), 360–69.
8 E. P. Sanders, “Testament of Abraham: A New Translation and Introduction,” 869–902;
...in J. H. Charlesworth, ed., The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. Vol. 1, Apocalyptic Literature and Testaments. (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1983).
9 David Winston Suter, “The Measure of Redemption: The Similitudes of Enoch, Nonviolence, and National Integrity,” SBL 1983 Papers, 167–76.
10 J. C. Hindley, “Towards a Date for the Similitudes of Enoch,” NTS 14 (1968) 551–65.
11 Knibb, “The Date of the Parables of Enoch,” 344–59
12 See a more detailed review of these arguments in my original dissertation, The Son of Man in Matthew and the “Similitudes of Enoch.”

42 See the essays on dating the Parables in Gabriele Boccaccini, Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2007) 415–496
43 Paolo Sacchi, “The 2005 Camaldoli Seminar on the Parables of Enoch: Summary and Prospects for Future Research,”
....in Boccaccini, Enoch and the Messiah Son of Man, 510–511.



Previously,


Abstract

Depictions of the Son of Man in the Gospel of Matthew and in the Parables of Enoch (Par. En.) raise questions about their relationship. The meaning and origin of the term “Son of Man” are discussed, as well as the possible influence of Par. En. on Matthew.

Literary, Redaction, Sociological and Narrative criticisms are employed. Introductory questions of date, provenance and social setting are addressed for both Matthew and Par. En. Dates as early as the early second century bce and as late as the late third century ce have been proposed for Par. En., but a consensus seems to be growing for the late first century bce. Therefore Matthew could have known Par. En. Sociological methodologies reveal that the author and audience of Par. En. may have been members of an ousted ruling elite, opposed to the current administration, and yearning for a just reversal of fortunes.

Sets of characteristics of the Son of Man in Par. En. and Matthew are carefully compared. Similarities in vocabulary as well as in the pattern of relationships prove to be intriguing, showing that Matthew and Par. En., in contrast to other writings, share a unique conception of the judgment scene focused on the Son of Man as eschatological judge. This suggests quite strongly the shaping of Matthew’s concept in the direction of Par. En.

Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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