The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

Currently reading this amazing book :
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I wanted to share this table from this article :
Leslie W Walck - The Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch and the Gospels
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Jesus share all these characteristics with the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 am Jesus share all these characteristics with the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch.
Yes, it's a necessary book for anyone interested in Christian origins. So many questions raised. I want to explore the links of this Son of Man/Enoch concept with the Mesopotamian myths and their influence in Second Temple Judaism, an influence that was apparently rejected by those behind the views we find in the Qumran scrolls.

Lately much of my time has been given over to getting to the bottom of Thomas Witulski's case for Revelation being a second century text and once I have that under wraps I must return on the blog to the Messiah concept as it was understood (at least in some Second Temple quarters) before Christianity.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:33 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 am Jesus share all these characteristics with the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch.
I want to explore the links of this Son of Man/Enoch concept with the Mesopotamian myths and their influence in Second Temple Judaism, an influence that was apparently rejected by those behind the views we find in the Qumran scrolls.
Lately much of my time has been given over to getting to the bottom of Thomas Witulski's case for Revelation being a second century text and once I have that under wraps I must return on the blog to the Messiah concept as it was understood (at least in some Second Temple quarters) before Christianity.
Interesting.
Im waiting for your new articles :cheers:
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:55 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:33 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 am Jesus share all these characteristics with the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch.
I want to explore the links of this Son of Man/Enoch concept with the Mesopotamian myths and their influence in Second Temple Judaism, an influence that was apparently rejected by those behind the views we find in the Qumran scrolls.
Lately much of my time has been given over to getting to the bottom of Thomas Witulski's case for Revelation being a second century text and once I have that under wraps I must return on the blog to the Messiah concept as it was understood (at least in some Second Temple quarters) before Christianity.
Interesting.
Im waiting for your new articles :cheers:
Meanwhile, Bedenbender's published thesis on apocalyptic literature has just arrived and I'm in the process now of translating and reading that -- it seems to be necessary groundwork in order to make sense of Enoch, Daniel, Revelation, and potentially early Christian developments.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:27 am
Sinouhe wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:55 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:33 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 am Jesus share all these characteristics with the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch.
I want to explore the links of this Son of Man/Enoch concept with the Mesopotamian myths and their influence in Second Temple Judaism, an influence that was apparently rejected by those behind the views we find in the Qumran scrolls.
Lately much of my time has been given over to getting to the bottom of Thomas Witulski's case for Revelation being a second century text and once I have that under wraps I must return on the blog to the Messiah concept as it was understood (at least in some Second Temple quarters) before Christianity.
Interesting.
Im waiting for your new articles :cheers:
Meanwhile, Bedenbender's published thesis on apocalyptic literature has just arrived and I'm in the process now of translating and reading that -- it seems to be necessary groundwork in order to make sense of Enoch, Daniel, Revelation, and potentially early Christian developments.
Are you going to write an article about it on Vridar ? Looks interesting.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:42 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 3:27 am
Sinouhe wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:55 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:33 am
Sinouhe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 am Jesus share all these characteristics with the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch.
I want to explore the links of this Son of Man/Enoch concept with the Mesopotamian myths and their influence in Second Temple Judaism, an influence that was apparently rejected by those behind the views we find in the Qumran scrolls.
Lately much of my time has been given over to getting to the bottom of Thomas Witulski's case for Revelation being a second century text and once I have that under wraps I must return on the blog to the Messiah concept as it was understood (at least in some Second Temple quarters) before Christianity.
Interesting.
Im waiting for your new articles :cheers:
Meanwhile, Bedenbender's published thesis on apocalyptic literature has just arrived and I'm in the process now of translating and reading that -- it seems to be necessary groundwork in order to make sense of Enoch, Daniel, Revelation, and potentially early Christian developments.
Are you going to write an article about it on Vridar ? Looks interesting.
One day, yes. So much reading to do first.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

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From this perspective, the absence of the Parables from Qumran is not so surprising.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

I have finished translating Andreas Bedenbender's Der Gott der Welt tritt auf den Sinai and am well into reading it now. Already I can see why certain Enoch traditions would be anathema to those on the side of Moses and the Torah and Exodus story and Sinai Covenant accounts. Essentially, the Enoch myth was an answer to the ideological failure of the Deuteronomist ideology from the time of the persecutions under the Seleucids. The Seleucids were not the primary instigators of the persecutions but were the bailiffs of the Temple priests (led by Menelaus) who attempted to bring Judea into the "modern world" by Hellenizing the religion. No longer were the righteous spared but they suffered the same fate as sinners. The Enoch ideology did away with the exclusivist position of the nation of Israel (whether that nation was the literal nation or a subgroup claiming to be the "true" Israel).

Thus is the beginning of Bedenbender's argument. Will post more on the blog as I clarify it all in my head.

(The thesis posits an "unholy" alliance between the Enoch and Moses groups against the common enemy of the Temple, the high priest Menelaus. So it's not a "black and white" story.)

-----

ETA:

Der Gott der Welt seemed to be necessary prior reading to Bedenbender's later works since those are constantly pointing back to the published thesis.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by MrMacSon »

According to Wikipedia (edited here)


Menelaus (Hebrew: מנלאוס) was High Priest in Jerusalem from about 172 BC] to about 161 BC. He was high priest at the beginning of the Maccabean revolt (167-160). He was the successor of Jason, the brother of Onias III.

The sources are divided as to his origin.
According to II Maccabees, he belonged to the Tribe of Benjamin and was the brother of the Simeon who had denounced Onias III to Seleucus IV Philopator; and he revealed the existence of the treasure of the Temple to the Syrians.

According to Josephus, Menelaus was the brother of Onias III and Jason, his two predecessors as High Priest, and also bore the name Onias. It's possible that Josephus confused Simeon, the brother of Menelaus, with Simeon, the father of Onias and Jason.

Menelaus headed the Hellenists of the stamp of the Tobiads who plotted Jason's overthrow, suspecting him of partiality to traditional Judaism. When sent to Antiochus to pay the annual tribute, Menelaus took the opportunity to outbid Jason to secure for himself the office of high priest.

Antiochus sent an officer named Sostrates with a troop of Cyprian soldiers to subdue any opposition by the followers of the deposed high priest, Jason, and to also collect the sum Menelaus had promised.

Menelaus' seized the sacred vessels in the Temple stores in order to meet his obligations. The deposed high priest Onias III publicly accused Menelaus of robbing the Temple. Menelaus induced the king's lieutenant, Andronicus, who had had his share of the plunder, to get rid of Onias, which he did.

As Menelaus continued to plunder the treasures of the Temple, violence ensued, during which his brother Lysimachus was killed. Menelaus then brought before the king an accusation against the people of Jerusalem: that they were partisans of the Egyptians and persecuted him. This accusation led to the execution of several Jews even though they proved beyond any doubt that Menelaus and Lysimachus had desecrated the Temple.

Meanwhile, Jason had not abandoned his claims to the high-priesthood, and while Antiochus was waging war against Egypt (170) he succeeded in making himself master of Jerusalem, forcing Menelaus to seek refuge in the citadel. Antiochus regarded this as an affront upon his majesty, and, having been compelled by the Romans to leave Egypt, he marched against Jerusalem, massacred the inhabitants, and plundered the Temple; in this he is said to have been assisted by Menelaus.

According to II Maccabees, it was Menelaus who persuaded Antiochus to Hellenize the Jewish worship, and thereby brought about the uprising of the Judeans under the guidance of the Maccabees. During the first years of the restoration of the Jewish worship Menelaus remained high priest, though only nominally. Classicist John Ma has suggested the letters preserved in II Maccabees imply that it was Menelaus who actually negotiated the return of traditional religious and civic rights to the Jewish community, with the Hasmoneans later taking credit. Menelaus is said to have been put to death by Antiochus V Eupator when the latter made definite concessions to the Jews: the reason assigned being that Menelaus, by his counsel, was indirectly responsible for the Jewish rebellion.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menelaus_(High_Priest)
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DCHindley
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by DCHindley »

I once (2013, updated 2017) summarized the sources as follows:

175, Sep 1 Macc. 1:10 & 2 Macc. 4:7 Antiochus IV Epiphanes succeeds Seleucus IV Philopator.
175 2 Macc. 4:7 Jason outbids High Priesthood from Antiochus and succeeds his brother Onias III.
175-172 2 Macc. 4:10ff. Jason begins Hellenizing Judean life.
172 2 Macc. 4:21 Antiochus greeted with pomp in Jerusalem on way to secure the Philistine border with Egypt (the imputed “1st invasion” of Egypt in 2 Macc.) after the coronation of Egyptian King Philometor in 172.
172-171 2 Macc. 4:23-26 Menelaus, son of Simon, a Tobiad, outbids Jason, an Oniad, for the High Priesthood and drives Jason as a fugitive into the land of Ammon.
172/1-169 2 Macc. 4:27-32 Menelaus has trouble delivering his promised tribute to Antiochus, resorting to theft of holy vessels from the Temple.
172/1-169 2 Macc. 4:33 Onias III protests this theft and retreats to the place of sanctuary of Apollo and Artemis at Daphne, a city 5 miles from Antioch.
172/1-169 2 Macc. 4:34 Menelaus, by means of Antiochus’ regent Andronicus, has Onias III lured from his sanctuary and killed.
172/1-169 Josephus, Antiq, Book XII, Chapter 10 (edition of W. Whiston) Onias III’s son, Onias IV, flees to Ptolemy VI Philometor and Cleopatra in Egypt where he is allowed to erect a Temple to God at Heliopolis.
172/1-169 2 Macc. 4:35-38 The Jews protest the murder of Onias III, and Antiochus IV has Andronicus executed.
169 1 Macc. 1:16-20; 2 Macc. 5:1-6 Jason, thinking Antiochus was killed while invading Egypt, rebels against Menelaus, to try and reacquire the High Priesthood, and attacks Jerusalem, taking much of the city. Menelaus retreats to the Citadel which is held by a Syrian garrison.
169 2 Macc. 5:10-14,7-10 Antiochus hears of this and takes the city back from Jason and forces him back into exile in Ammon.
169 1 Macc. 1:20-23; 2 Macc. 5:15-21 Menelaus lets Antiochus enter the Temple itself to steal the votive offerings of prior kings.
169 2 Macc. 5: 22-23 Antiochus leaves Menelaus in charge of civil government as High priest, but established military governors (Phillip in Jerusalem and Andronicus over Samaria) and kills many who practice the Jewish Law.
168 1 Macc. 1:29-35 Antiochus invades Egypt again, and demands tribute from Menelaus, sending his general Apollonius to extract it from the populace by extreme means if necessary.
168 or 167 1 Macc. 1:41-53; 2 Macc. 5:24-26 Antiochus commands that all peoples in his empire follow Hellenic ways, and forbids the practice of the Jewish Law on pain of death. Apollonius enforces the decree.
168/7 1 Macc. 2:1-48 The priest Mattathias, a priest of the order of Jorarib, defies Antiochus IV’s order and starts a guerrilla war against the Syrians and those who apostatized with Menelaus.
167, Dec 6 1 Macc. 1:54-64; 2 Macc. 6:1-7:42 The Temple is profaned by the erection of a “desolating sacrilege/horrible abomination” (i.e., the “abomination of desolation” in Daniel 9) upon the alter of burnt offerings.
166/5 1 Macc. 2:49-69 Mattathias dies.
166/5 1 Macc. 3:1-4:35; 2 Macc. 8:1-7 Judas, son of Mattathias, takes over the resistance movement and upgrades the fight to full scale rebellion.
165/4 1 Macc. 3:35-37 Antiochus IV’s general Lysias was sent against Judas’ forces.
164 1 Macc. 3:38-4:35; 2 Macc. 8:8-36 Judas succeed in defeating the main portion of the Syrian forces in the country.
164 1 Macc. 4:35; 2 Macc. 9:13-29 Defeat of Lysias. Lysias offers peace terms to Judas. Antiochus IV ratifies them as he was busy with a floundering campaign in Persia and/or going insane from a disease.
164, Dec 1 Macc. 6:1-17, 2 Macc. 9:1-12 Antiochus IV was defeated at Elymias in Persia, and on way back to Babylon contracted a disease that killed him. (1 Macc. 6:16, though, erroneously dates his death in the year 163/162 unless his source dated it according to a calendar that started the 149th year of the Seleucid era in the Fall of 164 instead of the Spring of 163 as was the Seleucid norm.)
164, Dec 14 1 Macc. 4:36-60; 2 Macc. 10:1-8 Rededication of the alter in the temple and fortification of Jerusalem and key towns in Judea.
164/163 1 Macc. 4:35; 2 Macc. 10:10-11 Lysias heads to Antioch to secure throne for his puppet Antiochus V Eupator, and get reinforcements to resume battle with Judas.
164 or 163 2 Macc. 10:12-13 Good relations with Ptolemy, an advisor to Antiocus V, until he is denounced as a traitor and he commits suicide.
164-162 1 Macc. 5:1-68; 2 Macc. 10:14-38; 12:1-45 Judas fights off attacks by the Syrian generals Gorgias, Timothy, and Nicanor. In the process, Judas carries the battle for Jewish freedom to foreign soil to strengthen his rebel Jewish government and protect Jews from persecution by their neighbors in Gentile towns and villages.
163/162 1 Macc. 6:18-28 Judas lays siege to the Citadel in Jerusalem, which is still held by the Syrians, and Beth-zur, eventually taking that latter town.
163, Fall 1 Macc. 6:29-54; 2 Macc. 13:1-22 Taking advantage of the Jewish Sabbatical year (Fall 164-Summer 163), Antiochus V and Lysias return with a large force fortified with mercenary troops and they lay siege to Jerusalem and Beth-zur. Due to a lack of provisions, Beth-zur was abandoned to the Syrians and Judas’ forces defending the Sanctuary are seriously reduced.
163/2 1 Macc. 6:55-62; 2 Macc.11:1-38; 13:23-26 Lysias finds out that there is a contender to Antiochus V’s throne and makes peace with Judas in order to be able to head for Antioch, but tears down the city walls.
163/2 2 Macc. 13:3-8 Menelaus, who had joined Lysias’ and Antiochus V’s war party, is accused by some of having started the rebellion through his misrule, and Antiochus has him executed.

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