The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

@Giuseppe
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

Thanks for the effort, Sinohue. It is very strange; in the English translation the chapter on Marcion doesn't end with the pages you have just uploaded (pages that coincide entirely with Histoire de Jésus). It seems then that the English translation has been expanded partially by the same Couchoud.
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 7:19 am Thanks for the effort, Sinohue. It is very strange; in the English translation the chapter on Marcion doesn't end with the pages you have just uploaded (pages that coincide entirely with Histoire de Jésus). It seems then that the English translation has been expanded partially by the same Couchoud.
Yes. I can’t find the Enoch quotations. Your english edition can be an updated version of the book.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by neilgodfrey »

Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:22 am
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:45 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:42 am Great, it may interest readers who don't read French. For my part, being French, I would be more comfortable to read it in its original language. I received it, I will certainly read it after I finish the one on 2 Enoch.
Sinohue, can you upload a day the French original book Jésus, Le dieu fait homme on archive.org? I would like a lot to read the original nuances of Couchoud in the original language!

I will upload in whiletime Couchoud's another book, Histoire de Jésus.
Do i need to scan the book to upload it on archive.org ? I don't have a scanner. But i can take pictures if you need some pages.
Has this all been sorted out? (Otherwise, I have the software to combine and ocr scanned/photographed images into a single pdf, if that helps.)
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Giuseppe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:48 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:22 am
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:45 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:42 am Great, it may interest readers who don't read French. For my part, being French, I would be more comfortable to read it in its original language. I received it, I will certainly read it after I finish the one on 2 Enoch.
Sinohue, can you upload a day the French original book Jésus, Le dieu fait homme on archive.org? I would like a lot to read the original nuances of Couchoud in the original language!

I will upload in whiletime Couchoud's another book, Histoire de Jésus.
Do i need to scan the book to upload it on archive.org ? I don't have a scanner. But i can take pictures if you need some pages.
Has this all been sorted out? (Otherwise, I have the software to combine and ocr scanned/photographed images into a single pdf, if that helps.)
Neil, I can send you the photographed pages of Histoire de Jésus, so, once you upload it as a single pdf, a rapid comparison by Sinohue will allow to observe if the content is entirely identical with his version of Jésus, le dieu fait homme.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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Whether the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch is worshipped may depend on the definition of Worship See for example Hurtado.
I'm not entirely in agreement with Hurtado here, the veneration given to the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch does seem problematic from the point of view of strict monotheism. However, this veneration does seem different from a/ the worship of God himself in Enoch, b/ the worship of Jesus Christ in Paul and other New Testament writings and c/ the (problematic) veneration of Metatron in Hekhalot and Rabbinic sources.

Andrew Criddle
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by Sinouhe »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:52 am Whether the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch is worshipped may depend on the definition of Worship See for example Hurtado.
I'm not entirely in agreement with Hurtado here, the veneration given to the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch does seem problematic from the point of view of strict monotheism. However, this veneration does seem different from a/ the worship of God himself in Enoch, b/ the worship of Jesus Christ in Paul and other New Testament writings and c/ the (problematic) veneration of Metatron in Hekhalot and Rabbinic sources.

Andrew Criddle
I follow Waddell on this :
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Sinouhe
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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andrewcriddle
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

Post by andrewcriddle »

Sinouhe wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 5:25 am
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:52 am Whether the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch is worshipped may depend on the definition of Worship See for example Hurtado.
I'm not entirely in agreement with Hurtado here, the veneration given to the Son of Man in the Parables of Enoch does seem problematic from the point of view of strict monotheism. However, this veneration does seem different from a/ the worship of God himself in Enoch, b/ the worship of Jesus Christ in Paul and other New Testament writings and c/ the (problematic) veneration of Metatron in Hekhalot and Rabbinic sources.

Andrew Criddle
I follow Waddell on this :

<SNIP>
Waddell accepts that chapter 40 may not be relevant. The issue with chapters 48 and 62 is not only that they refer to future events, (events which the writer expected to happen in the future), but what seems to be happening is that the Son of Man is represented as visibly ruling upon earth as God's representative, and as much receives veneration. Whether one regards this as worship is a matter of definition but it seems rather different from the worship of God in Enoch and the other possible parallels I mentioned earlier.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 9:04 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:48 pm
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 6:22 am
Giuseppe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:45 am
Sinouhe wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:42 am Great, it may interest readers who don't read French. For my part, being French, I would be more comfortable to read it in its original language. I received it, I will certainly read it after I finish the one on 2 Enoch.
Sinohue, can you upload a day the French original book Jésus, Le dieu fait homme on archive.org? I would like a lot to read the original nuances of Couchoud in the original language!

I will upload in whiletime Couchoud's another book, Histoire de Jésus.
Do i need to scan the book to upload it on archive.org ? I don't have a scanner. But i can take pictures if you need some pages.
Has this all been sorted out? (Otherwise, I have the software to combine and ocr scanned/photographed images into a single pdf, if that helps.)
Neil, I can send you the photographed pages of Histoire de Jésus, so, once you upload it as a single pdf, a rapid comparison by Sinohue will allow to observe if the content is entirely identical with his version of Jésus, le dieu fait homme.
I sent you an email with the link to where you can upload the files, thanks.
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