The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch

[Sinouhe]

And apart from Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 is undoubtedly the most influential text on the passion of Jesus among Christians.

Among the authors of the gospels, in fact.

With selected verses from Psalm 22 in the gospels in reverse order (to how they appear in Ps 22)

I think the use of Psalm 22 predates Mark (1st Clement and Barnabas). If not, these two texts are from traditions independent of Mark. By the way, Clement mixes Isaiah 53 and psalm 22 in the same chapter (XVI) and Barnabas quotes Isaiah 53 (V) and Psalm 22 (VI) too.

[neilgodfrey]

Justin who is writing long after all the texts have been settled

I rather hold that Justin knew none of our NT works except the Apocalypse of John.

[mlinssen]

Justin who is writing long after all the texts have been settled

I rather hold that Justin knew none of our NT works except the Apocalypse of John.

You can hold that, but are you suggesting he just refused to do his homework?

[neilgodfrey]

By associating Psalm 22 with Isaiah 53, they imagined that Jesus was crucified on a wooden stake as Paul refers to it in Galatians :

• Galatians 3
  13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written:
  “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

To imagine that Christians have associated Psalm 22 with Isaiah 53 would be far-fetched ???

That may be so, but the problem I have with that explanation is that Paul, from memory, nowhere links the piercing of hands and feet as per Psalm 22 with Jesus. We don't even see that connection in our canonical gospels. A few key lines from Psalm 22 are alluded to in the gospels but not verse 17. Paul comes to the idea of crucifixion via "wood" in Genesis 22 and the curse of Deuteronomy. Ps 22:17 may be translated in other ways that "pierced my hands and feet": it could be some sort of metaphor for reducing the victim to helplessness in every way. The first time we see "pierced my hands and feet" in connection with the crucifixion is with Justin and (iir) the Gospel of Peter.

When we look for theories to explain puzzles we are guided by "what if" ideas that are already in our head and seeing which idea we bring to the exercise can be made to fit the data. A form of confirmation bias for our pet theories, in other words. That's what guides the often highly creative interpretations of the various scriptures. So why an interest in looking for a crucifixion as opposed to, say, having the messiah's throat cut or having him speared or dying by any other method that sheds blood?

[neilgodfrey]

Justin who is writing long after all the texts have been settled

I rather hold that Justin knew none of our NT works except the Apocalypse of John.

You can hold that, but are you suggesting he just refused to do his homework?

Nope. Not at all. The dog didn't have anything to eat that evening.

[neilgodfrey]

Staking wasn't new, but perhaps Justin helped shape or even create the idea of a † shaped crucifixion and the lore / imagery etc that has long been part of with that.

Doesn't Justin -- or the character of Justin in our sources -- seem to be there to justify what is believed, what he/his audience have inherited/heard? I'm sure Marcion also spoke of a crucified Jesus.

[Sinouhe]

That may be so, but the problem I have with that explanation is that Paul, from memory, nowhere links the piercing of hands and feet as per Psalm 22 with Jesus. We don't even see that connection in our canonical gospels. A few key lines from Psalm 22 are alluded to in the gospels but not verse 17. Paul comes to the idea of crucifixion via "wood" in Genesis 22 and the curse of Deuteronomy. Ps 22:17 may be translated in other ways that "pierced my hands and feet": it could be some sort of metaphor for reducing the victim to helplessness in every way. The first time we see "pierced my hands and feet" in connection with the crucifixion is with Justin and (iir) the Gospel of Peter.

When we look for theories to explain puzzles we are guided by "what if" ideas that are already in our head and seeing which idea we bring to the exercise can be made to fit the data. A form of confirmation bias for our pet theories, in other words. That's what guides the often highly creative interpretations of the various scriptures. So why an interest in looking for a crucifixion as opposed to, say, having the messiah's throat cut or having him speared or dying by any other method that sheds blood?

You are right. But let's not forget that Paul says that Jesus was resurrected on the third day according to the scriptures, although it is not clear to this day which scriptures he is talking about.
Given the importance of Psalm 22 which is associated with the servant of Isaiah in the tradition of the suffering servant that precedes Paul (DSS) that follows him (Clement or Barnabas), I don't think it is exaggerated to imagine that Christians hold this crucifixion from Psalm 22. But of course it could be a pesher from another scripture.

Unfortunately, we cannot be certain, only suspicious.
But it would be surprising if his Christ was constantly connected to the scriptures, except his crucifixion.

[neilgodfrey]

But it would be surprising if his Christ was constantly connected to the scriptures, except his crucifixion.

I have no problem with Jesus/Christ being connected to the scriptures along with his crucifixion.... but why not "connected to the scriptures along with his throat slit like a sacrificial lamb?"

[neilgodfrey]

The answer used to be so simple when I assumed the Gospel of Mark invented the idea, but of course, it didn't. Death by crucifix (or stauros if one prefers) seems to first appear in the records without any association with the mass crucifixions experienced by the Jewish people as a result of the war of 66-70.

[Sinouhe]

I have no problem with Jesus/Christ being connected to the scriptures along with his crucifixion.... but why not "connected to the scriptures along with his throat slit like a sacrificial lamb?"

Do we have a "prophetic" verse in the scriptures that links the messiah and his throat slit or another type of execution ? I could be wrong, but the scripture that most closely resembles a killing in a « prophetic » context, apart from Isaiah 53, would be Psalm 22.