Re: The Celestial Messiah in the parables of Enoch
Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 1:40 am
Investigating the roots of western civilization (ye olde BC&H forum of IIDB lives on...)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/
Page 183-184
The most striking similarities of conceptual elements with regard to the messiah figures in BP and LP must be approached from a perspective that appreciates the way in which these conceptual elements are combined. Simply listing the conceptual elements or viewing the connections separately can be misleading and will lead to a wrong conclusion. In other words, it would be wrong to conclude that the similar conceptual elements in BP and in LP taken separately simply suggest that Paul’s messianic thought is nothing more than a parallel development. The conceptual elements “human being” and “heavenly being” are not in themselves unique with reference to mediatorial figures in the Second Temple period. It is the combination of these two conceptual elements with reference to the messiah figure that is unprecedented in the history of Jewish thought. Add to this combination the attribute of preexistence, an extensively developed association with wisdom, an unprecedented association with the divine name (with the possible exception of the Melchizedek figure in the Dead Sea Scrolls), an unprecedented presiding of the messiah figure over the eschatological judgment, and the unprecedented function of being worshiped by humans, and the combination of conceptual elements of messianic traditions in BP becomes even more extraordinary. It is only when these conceptual elements are taken together that we begin to understand the unprecedented level of develop- ment of messianic thought in BP. Such a level of development precludes any suggestion of coincidental development or parallel development of the same combination of messianic conceptual elements in LP.
Page 202-203
This study has demonstrated that at least one facet of Paul’s thought, his christology, was heavily infuenced by Enochic Son of Man traditions.
If we take on their own terms the various elements of the nature and the functions of the messiah figure held in common by the Book of the Parables of Enoch (BP) and the Letters of Paul (LP), then there are four elements of messianic nature that are unprecedented in Jewish literature: the messiah :
- (1) a heavenly being,
- (2) preexistent,
- (3) like an angel,
- (4) associated with the divine name.
There are four functions that are unprecedented in Jewish literature: the messiah figure :
- (1) sits on the throne of judgment
- (2) presides at the judgment,
- (3) raises the dead
- (4) and is worshiped by humans.
The fact that a human messiah figure, which in itself was not unprecedented in the literature, is now also a preexistent heavenly being who from the throne of the divine figure presides over the eschatological judgment, causes the resurrection of the dead, and is worshiped by humans—this is a striking development of Second Temple period Jewish messianic thought.
Such an unprecedented level of development in BP precludes any suggestion of coincidental or parallel development of the same combination of messianic conceptual elements in LP. It must be acknowledged, however, that we cannot say with any certainty that Paul actually knew the text of BP.
There is no evidence of direct quotation, like the quote of BW in the Letter of Jude.
The evidence leads to the conclusion that Paul must have been familiar with the conceptual elements of the messianic traditions in BP. While Paul developed his concept of the messiah figure well beyond that of BP by adding the functions of crucifxion, resurrection, and forgive- ness of sins, again the similarity of the combination of conceptual ele- ments pertaining to both the nature and the functions of the messiah figure that are common to both BP and LP is too striking to dismiss as coincidental or as a parallel development.
It must also be acknowledged that there are terminological differences regarding the messiah figures in BP and LP. While both BP and LP refer to the messiah figure as “Messiah,” BP refers to the messiah figure as the Chosen One, the Son of Man, and the Righteous One. Paul did not use these epithets for the messiah figure. Paul referred to the messiah figure as Kyrios (“Lord”), Christos (“Messiah”), son of David, and son of God. Paul never referred to the messiah figure in LP as the Son of Man.
Even though there are clear terminological differences regarding the messiah figure in BP and LP, the similarity of combination of conceptual ele- ments is striking and the terminological difference in no way mitigates the conclusion that Paul used the extraordinary combination of con- ceptual elements of messianic traditions in BP to create his own vision of the messiah figure in LP.
Page 209
Paul indeed was a Jew. Now we can say with a high degree of certainty from which stream of Jewish intellectual tradition Paul developed his concept of the Messiah. It was Enoch.
This was translated into English as The Creation of Christ (2 volumes) -- also on archive.org and vridar.info and of courses on https://vridar.org/tag/couchoud-the-creation-of-christ/Sinouhe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:02 amGiuseppe wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:46 am René Salm had uploaded the English translation:
http://www.mythicistpapers.com/2016/09/ ... -uploaded/
I have the book Histoire de Jésus, that coincides quasi totally with Le Dieu fait homme
I just bought this one for 10€ on ebay
Thank you, Sinhoue. Now what's the next step?
Hello Neil,Thank you, Sinhoue. Now what's the next step?
Which verses do you suppose are interpolated in Paul ?We have Paul overlaps with Parables, Philo and Seneca. I'd be interested if any particular strand of such overlaps coincides with any of the proposed layers of interpolation in Paul.
For the moment, in my conclusion, Jesus is the synthesis of Jewish messianic fantasies found in both DSS and in the book of Parables.And what to make of the three elements that Waddell sees as not being part of the Parables: crucifixion, resurrection and forgiveness?
Great, it may interest readers who don't read French. For my part, being French, I would be more comfortable to read it in its original language. I received it, I will certainly read it after I finish the one on 2 Enoch.This was translated into English as The Creation of Christ (2 volumes) -- also on archive.org and vridar.info and of courses on https://vridar.org/tag/couchoud-the-creation-of-christ/
Sinohue, can you upload a day the French original book Jésus, Le dieu fait homme on archive.org? I would like a lot to read the original nuances of Couchoud in the original language!
Do i need to scan the book to upload it on archive.org ? I don't have a scanner. But i can take pictures if you need some pages.
I would be curious particularly about the original French of the English translation found in p. 135-137: