Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:57 pm
If evidence is not king then what is - opinion?
Well people will disagree about how the one bit of evidence is to be interpreted, how it is to be dated, etc. And how it fits into the overall pattern of evidence for the epoch.
The completeness of superlinears seems to be a solid indication of their maturity / development - and that is my motivation of what I see in this evidence. What's yours?
I look at a very broad spectrum of all sorts of different evidence from the 4th century and the earlier centuries. All of the texts in the NHL and the NT Apocrypha for example. The political histories, the philosophical literature, the coins, scientific and medical literature, geography, everything I can find. The nomina sacra fit into this bigger picture somehow like a piece of the jigsaw puzzle fits into the overall 4D picture. They are supposed to be a distinctive - almost trade mark - feature of Christian literature.

I would assume that the scriptoria and the people involved in the production of the imperially sponsored NT Bible Codex were not the same scriptoria and the people involved in the production of the NHL. The former were the orthodoxy. The latter were the heretics. That's how I look at the evidence at the moment.

I have attempted to draw a map of this evidence here:

Evidence Map: Chronology of the components of Christian Literature
https://www.academia.edu/78665273/Evide ... Literature


Can you provide Magne's elaboration here? As it is unclear to me what he means with this opinion
I came across it on Vridar
https://vridar.org/2018/10/01/enticed-b ... mythicist/

This could be epitomized by the epigraph at the beginning of Magne’s second chapter:

Apart from archeological evidence, the only facts we can attain are the texts. We must therefore reason about the texts that relate facts, not about the facts related by the texts.

(Magne, p. 23)

My search for the author of that epigraph eventually led me to the following explanation.
  • Dom Maerten’s criticism highlighted the difference which exists between the historical method based on authentic, dated documents and the critical method which, like an archeologist when he excavates, has to distinguish between the various redactional layers in biblical or liturgical documents. Errors of syntax are one of the means of reconstructing the prehistory of a text in order to attain History. The historian’s shortcoming lies in his frequent inability to distinguish between two literary genres : works that have an author and works of living literature where each generation has added its contribution.

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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Secret Alias wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 9:21 am Thinking is one thing. But those who stridently attack 'the status quo' accusing it of this or that SHOULD PUBLISH SOMETHING that can be fairly evaluated.

The Runes of Christ at Dura.

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:40 pm I will not read this paper. It's a beyond silly premise. You only wrote it because of the cart before the horse problem that characterized your time at our forum. I have better things to do than read this idiotic paper.
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 12:52 am
mlinssen wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 11:57 pm
If evidence is not king then what is - opinion?
Well people will disagree about how the one bit of evidence is to be interpreted, how it is to be dated, etc. And how it fits into the overall pattern of evidence for the epoch.
The completeness of superlinears seems to be a solid indication of their maturity / development - and that is my motivation of what I see in this evidence. What's yours?
I look at a very broad spectrum of all sorts of different evidence from the 4th century and the earlier centuries. All of the texts in the NHL and the NT Apocrypha for example. The political histories, the philosophical literature, the coins, scientific and medical literature, geography, everything I can find. The nomina sacra fit into this bigger picture somehow like a piece of the jigsaw puzzle fits into the overall 4D picture. They are supposed to be a distinctive - almost trade mark - feature of Christian literature.

I would assume that the scriptoria and the people involved in the production of the imperially sponsored NT Bible Codex were not the same scriptoria and the people involved in the production of the NHL. The former were the orthodoxy. The latter were the heretics. That's how I look at the evidence at the moment.

I have attempted to draw a map of this evidence here:

Evidence Map: Chronology of the components of Christian Literature
https://www.academia.edu/78665273/Evide ... Literature


Can you provide Magne's elaboration here? As it is unclear to me what he means with this opinion
I came across it on Vridar
https://vridar.org/2018/10/01/enticed-b ... mythicist/

This could be epitomized by the epigraph at the beginning of Magne’s second chapter:

Apart from archeological evidence, the only facts we can attain are the texts. We must therefore reason about the texts that relate facts, not about the facts related by the texts.

(Magne, p. 23)

My search for the author of that epigraph eventually led me to the following explanation.
  • Dom Maerten’s criticism highlighted the difference which exists between the historical method based on authentic, dated documents and the critical method which, like an archeologist when he excavates, has to distinguish between the various redactional layers in biblical or liturgical documents. Errors of syntax are one of the means of reconstructing the prehistory of a text in order to attain History. The historian’s shortcoming lies in his frequent inability to distinguish between two literary genres : works that have an author and works of living literature where each generation has added its contribution.

I couldn't possibly see the value in giving my opinion on the opinion of someone else on the opinion of Magne

Texts and facts, facts and texts: that's juggling with words. The only fact is that the texts say what they say. We can use them for almost anything but claiming that what they state are facts
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged.

Post by billd89 »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:40 pm I will not read this paper. It's a beyond silly premise. You only wrote it because of the cart before the horse problem that characterized your time at our forum. I have better things to do than read this idiotic paper.
It's not "idiotic". It is very clever, yet either a) manifestly delusional or b) blatantly dissimulation. If someone fabricates a parallel universe ('make-believe') they can be 'crazy' in either case, but the two scenarios are not identical. It's deep into the psychology of bullshit, I think. Here's a more successful variant of the virus.

The long and twisted rationalizations certainly suggest high-functioning psychopath. Albeit, an exceedingly polite one.
Last edited by billd89 on Sun May 15, 2022 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Secret Alias »

We live in an age which has purged people of a bad conscience for telling untruths. No one has any shame. It's all about 'winning.' Shame is the best thing that Christianity and Judaism gave to the world. Without shame we assume the integrity of MAGA supporters.
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Integrity is the quality of being honest, having strong moral principles; moral uprightness

Post by billd89 »

A fairly recent poll states 17% of Americans currently believe Qanon Myth (recent Fabrication, c.Summer 2017). The paper at my link shows ~30% of today's Russians believe in Fomenko's New Chronology (c.1992? - ) whereas only 53% of Russians had internet access in 2012; it's almost a generation old, and thriving.

By comparison, The Протоколы сионских мудрецов (Protocols) is a Myth written c.1900 (1903), first published in English in 1919, debunked in 1921-24, then adopted by Nazis and others after 1933 (30 years later). So that Early 20th C. Russian Myth took 15 years to gain global traction and 30 years to become 'national ideology' (on a Europe-wide scale), whereas Qanon was adopted in 2-3yrs by at least 44mln people and it's probably global now.

Conspiracy Theory has been normalized.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 1:38 amThe only fact is that the texts say what they say. We can use them for almost anything but claiming that what they state are facts.
I am happy enough with that.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

billd89 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:37 amit's not "idiotic". It is very clever, yet either a) manifestly delusional or b) blatantly dissimulation. If someone fabricates a parallel universe ('make-believe') they can be 'crazy' in either case, but the two scenarios are not identical. It's deep into the psychology of bullshit, I think.
What doubt can there be that the church industry is not deep into the psychology of bullshit and the perpetuation of parallel theological universes? The evidence from Dura indicates that it is a reasonable question to ask - whether Yale has likely fabricated the overbars which Clark Hopkins never witnessed. For the glory of the 1930's church industry. The discovery was presented in prestigious European academic conferences decades before the final report was prepared. It was lapped up before WWII intervened.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 8:43 amWe live in an age which has purged people of a bad conscience for telling untruths.
The problem is that the church industry is not immune from telling untruths. It's certainly not some sort of divine institute. It was a business model established by Bullneck. Laws of heresy and blasphemy were included for almost one and a half thousand years.

So did Clark Hopkins tell the truth when he wrote “Very possibly, however, in short inscriptions this line above was not considered necessary.”
No one has any shame. It's all about 'winning.' Shame is the best thing that Christianity and Judaism gave to the world.
What a shameless assertion. The history of the "Book religions" on planet Earth indicates they all started as control systems implemented by supreme warlords at the zenith of their military power following a civil war. Plato and the Greeks talk about shame. According to Gmirkin Plato was imported to the Hebrew Bible in late Hellenistic times. The LXX was much afterwards imported into the NT canonical story books of the proto-orthodox Christians / Chrestians..

And its not about winning its about discovering the historical truth. No one blinks anymore when you ask did Jesus exist. But ask the question did Irenaeus exist and everyone starts blinking and stops thinking.

Plato also tells us how to go about writing a "National History" and "Constitutional Laws" for a newly founded colony. Whatever Christianity and Judaism gave to the world much of it they borrowed from Plato. (IMO)
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

From another thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9420&start=40

billd89 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 6:18 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:18 am
"Sethian" is a construct based on the presence of Seth and Platonising tendencies in various NHL tracts.
billd89 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 4:23 amWhy would you knowingly post such misinformation on the internet?
Leucius Charinus wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 5:18 amLike what?
Like that. Against history. Against truth.
Hans-Martin Schenke in 1974 ("Das sethianische System nach Nag-Hammadi-Handschriften") was one of the first scholars to categorize several texts in the Nag Hammadi library (NHL) as Sethian. We do not know the exact origin of Sethianism, although a number of competing hypotheses have been put forward. What we do know is that we have at least seventeen (17) texts from antiquity which scholars class as Sethian. For many of these we have physical manuscripts from the NHL.

1. Josephus (90 AD) testifies to the ancient Sethians of the Syriad of Egypt, in Antiquity of the Jews. (1.2.3.-1.3.4)

"I will therefore only endeavour to give an account of those that proceeded from Seth. [...] Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe [...] Whereby they made God to be their enemy...").
In this section Josephus discusses the antedeluvian Seth, the son of Adam from the book of Genesis. There is nothing here related to history or historical truth or to the authors of the so-called Sethian tracts in the NHL.


2. The heresiologists - who were real - also reported the Sethians from their (older) writings. Irenaeus (180 AD), and Pseudo-Tertullian (c.250 AD) among others.
Was Jesus real? Were the early heresiologists real? Was Irenaeus real? I think that most people are aware of the current paradigm for the chronology of the Sethian material. The terminus ad quem (latest possible date) for original composition is fixed by the earliest proof of existence of the texts, such as (rarely) the earliest physical copy (e.g. NHL) or (commonly) the first quotation or other utilisation of the text by some other datable work. In this instance it appears as if Irenaeus c.180 CE knows about the Sethians. Therefore if Irenaeus was real then we have a terminus ad quem of c.180 CE. Such is the current paradigm.

However the chronological paradigm can be questioned. Why should we place all our trust in this church literary source called Irenaeus? Are we obliged to give the church sources the benefit of any doubt? We do not have any non fragmentary Greek manuscripts of Irenaeus. Why not? All the manuscripts for Irenaeus are Latin. The earliest is from 10th/11th century. Almost a thousand years after Irenaeus supposedly wrote.

What if, for example, it is argued that the writings of Irenaeus have been fabricated by the Latin church (later 4th c). What if it can be demonstrated that the Nicene Church of 381 CE had a means, motive and opportunity to provide a false history of the 4th century heretics? The same Nicene Church industry cooked up false histories for the Saints and Martyrs and kick-started the Holy Relic Trade. This was not a divine institute. It is better described as a theological industrial complex. A chuch industry with a powerful and highly influential tertiary education sector.


3. The NHL (copies, not originals: c.345 AD), proof of (2) and contradiction of your weird campaign that everything is factory-product from the Church Misinformation Committee in the 5th C. AD.
If the terminus ad quem given by Irenaeus (for example) is without historical integrity then the latest possible date for the NHL originals includes the supreme rule of Constantine (325-337 CE). In this political context we have pagan Neo-Platonist philosophers circulating codices about Jesus and Seth and Plato in competition with the Emperor circulating codices about Jesus and Adam and Moses. Christian Gnosticism becomes a pagan Neo-Platonist reaction to the NT Codex and the Christianisation of the empire.

You post deliberate misinformation: why do you do it?
I ask questions.

Here's something on A. Fomenko, whose theories ....

Fomenko can be refuted in three letters: C14
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