Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Jair
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Jair »

mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:57 am
StephenGoranson wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:22 am The Dura Europos church has wall paintings of New Testament scenes. (And Christian graffiti.) Archaeologist-excavated.
The Excavations at Dura-Europos. Final Report VIII. Part II The Christian Building. 1967.
There appears to be a good deal of interpretation going on there - do you have a link to the wall paintings perhaps?

Oh wait LOL

https://artgallery.yale.edu/collections/objects/34498

yuag_50fcc236-64da-42ab-87d2-e2e518e2e41c.jpg

For more enjoyment: https://artgallery.yale.edu/overall-sea ... 20painting

I especially like "Christ walking on water"

yuag_74687270-ba41-4f58-87c2-34994932526c.jpg

And the "good shepherd" of course. Loads of LOLz
Are you commenting on the rather unfortunate quality of the art here, or are you also calling into question the authenticity of it?

If authentic, then from an archeological perspective, I think it’s an incredible find, regardless of the bad art.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Secret Alias »

Dura has always been the death knell of mountainman's stupid theories. That he hasn't given up and started over says more about the way we lie to ourselves to keep our theories alive than anything else.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:22 am The Dura Europos church has wall paintings of New Testament scenes.
Oh for Christ's sake. That is an interpretation offered by Yale Divinity College and it is scraping the barrel of confirmation bias.
(And Christian graffiti.)
I refer to these as "The Runes of Christ".
The problem is that Hopkins did not see any overbars.
Christian nomina sacra have overbars.
Archaeologist-excavated.
The Excavations at Dura-Europos. Final Report VIII. Part II The Christian Building. 1967.
The smoking guns are found in the Preliminary report. And in the comparisons between the preliminary report and the final report.

The Excavations at Dura Europos: CONDUCTED BY YALE UNIVERSITY AND THE FRENCH ACADEMY OF INSCRIPTIONS AND LETTERS
Preliminary Report of Fifth Season of Work
October 1931— March 1932
Edited by
M. I. Rostovtzeff
PUBLISHED New Haven Yale University Press 1934
PREFACE dated Rome November 1933

"The oldest inscription from any Christian church building is from a Marcionite church in a small village south of Damascus. The inscription, in Greek, identifies the building as the "gathering place [synagoge ] of the Marcionites of the village of Lebabon of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ under the leadership of Paul the presbyter" and is dated 318–319. “
https://www.encyclopedia.com/environmen ... marcionism
SG I have already now twice pointed out that, despite the assertions in your cited article above, the inscription attests to "JS the Good": χρηστοu, On the day this inscription was inscribed "JS the Christ" took a holiday.

Please explain
Last edited by Leucius Charinus on Wed May 11, 2022 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 7:57 am There appears to be a good deal of interpretation going on there - do you have a link to the wall paintings perhaps?

Oh wait LOL

https://artgallery.yale.edu/collections/objects/34498

yuag_50fcc236-64da-42ab-87d2-e2e518e2e41c.jpg

For more enjoyment: https://artgallery.yale.edu/overall-sea ... 20painting

I especially like "Christ walking on water"

yuag_74687270-ba41-4f58-87c2-34994932526c.jpg

And the "good shepherd" of course. Loads of LOLz
The history of the artistic appreciation of these murals and archaeology is mind boggling. For example the "baptismal font" was first proposed as a "martyrium" for some long lost Christian saint or martyr.

In regard to the mural now entitled "The Headless Christ walking on water with Peter" the person who discovered it - Clark Hopkins - thought it was a "ship-wreck scene".

And in regard to the mural now entitled "Christ Healing of the Paralytic" Clark Hopkins described it as "A god on a cloud".

Where's Wally?
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 12:52 pm Dura has always been the death knell of mountainman's stupid theories. That he hasn't given up and started over says more about the way we lie to ourselves to keep our theories alive than anything else.
Huller you are the self-professed expert on Christian nomina sacra. Two of these were supposedly "discovered" by Clark Hopkins in "The Christian Baptistry" and written up by Hopkins in the Preliminary Report of Dura. Avi Yonah describes these as "Individual freaks" I wonder why?

See Michael Avi-Yonah,
Abbreviations in Greek Inscriptions
Quarterly of the Department of Antiquities in Palestine
(Jerusalem: Government of Palestine, 1940)

As reprinted in
Abbreviations in Greek Inscriptions
Al. N. Oikonomides
Professor of Classics
Loyola University
Chicargo. Illinois
ARES Publishing 1974
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Jair wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 11:37 am Are you commenting on the rather unfortunate quality of the art here, or are you also calling into question the authenticity of it?
The question obviously boils down to the interpretation.
Are we looking at Jesus or Wally or some random subject from Dura?
If authentic, then from an archeological perspective, I think it’s an incredible find, regardless of the bad art.
No doubt the murals are authentic just like the authentic Jewish murals plastered all over the Jewish Synagogue at Dura. The problem is that the Christian "Religious Room" was discovered before the Jewish synagogue at which time, it was all but universally believed, that the Jewish religious milieu did not represent artistic interpretations of their Jewish Bible Story Book. When the Jewish synagogue was discovered it was believed to be some sort of Hellenistic art for some time before they worked out it was Jewish.

When Hopkins laid his eyes on the mural of David and Goliath he knew it could not be Jewish because the Jewish people had no art. (The synagogue was yet to be discovered). So obviously in Clark Hopkins mind and in the mind of his colleagues - the David and Goliath mural must have been commissioned by a Christian.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Secret Alias »

mountainman logic:

1. there's lots of Christian stuff at Dura Europos
2. find a crumb in that pile of stuff you don't like - "Avi Yonah describes these as "Individual freaks" I wonder why?"

= the pile doesn't exist, look at the crumb.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Secret Alias »

Like this is the same bullshit ten years later.

There really is 'Christian stuff' at the sealed site of Dura Europos.
This really should end your stupid arguments.
It really doesn't.

Why is that?

Is it because you've come up with comprehensive explanations for what's at Dura Europos.
No.

So why are you wasting everyone's time?
Why don't you back into the wilderness of the internet putting your stuff up at a site and prey on the ignorant?

This theory just doesn't work. No matter how much distraction, diversion, sleight of hand you employ.

Dura Europos proves Christianity existed in the third century. End of story.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 5:50 pmIs it because you've come up with comprehensive explanations for what's at Dura Europos.
Ninety pages of discussion:
Dura-Europos domus ecclesiae? Archaeology, Iconography & MSS
https://historum.com/threads/dura-europ ... ss.129950/
No.
Summarised in a five page essay:
The Runes of Christ at Dura Europos
https://www.academia.edu/38115589/The_R ... ra_Europos

Find fault with the essay if you can.
Dura Europos proves Christianity existed in the third century. End of story.
Yale Divinity College would love to prove that Christianity and the oldest known Christian "house-church" existed way out on the Persian border at Dura Europos in the 3rd century, and that it was "discovered" by their 1930's archaeological team. Feel free to subscribe to their theological interpretation of Jesus H. Christ in their artistic appreciation of the murals. I certainly don't.

It's like believing there is historical truth in the accounts of Marcion in the fabulous falsifying Ante Nicene Fathers of the Catholic Church industry. O wait !! You believe in this bullshit.
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Secret Alias
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Re: Heresiology before 325 CE has been forged: NT Apocryphal literature is a Post-Nicene reaction to the NT Bible.

Post by Secret Alias »

I will not read this paper. It's a beyond silly premise. You only wrote it because of the cart before the horse problem that characterized your time at our forum. I have better things to do than read this idiotic paper. I presume you should have had better things to do than write this idiotic paper - like find a new conspiracy theory that isn't contradicted by obvious pieces of evidence like Dura Europos.

You could start working on a 90 page treatise that up is really down.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Wed May 11, 2022 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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