The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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mlinssen
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Post by mlinssen »

davidmartin wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:48 am Not attractive to me! But I think some folks liked this mindset and thought it was the way to go. The teaching of Thomas is basically the opposite of this, as I read in your analysis of the sayings
Thomas indeed is, he is not only about setting yourself free from both the slave and the slaveowner, he even talks about those having chosen over those being chosen

49. IS said: some Fortunates are the Single Ones and who have chosen; you will fall to the reign of king - yourselves some from her Once more you will go to the place there.

50. IS said: if they should say it to you, whence have you come to be?
Say it to them: have we come from the light, the place the light has come to be therein outward by the hand of himself; he stood to his feet and he revealed from their Image.
If they should say it to you: yourselves is... then say it: we his children and we the chosen of the father who is living;
if they should question you: what? is the sign of your father which in you, say it to them: a movement it is, there is not a Repose.

The first word is the verb, the second is the noun - and Thomas uses these two different forms for very good reasons.
The chosen? Fortunate are those who have chosen themselves - and the only Choice in Thomas is in logion 8, the parable of the fisherman

So yeah, certainly no meek slavery in Thomas
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 5:29 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:27 pm
mlinssen wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:34 pmPhilip talks of Chrestianity, and at some point he continues about Christianity. Philip is telling what I'm telling right here - but all of that got obfuscated by incompetent and biased academics or evil and biased academics. There's no grey area in between there really
Confirmation bias rules the mainstream paradigm. An analysis of Philip looks to be the best source from which this "Christian/Chrestian" terminological problem might be resolved.
Well, you can easily analyse that now, in order to resolve that "terminological problem"

viewtopic.php?p=129716#p129716

The translation is by Paterson Brown, so "okayish"
I am onto it for a second round of analysis. This summary you made is useful:

here's the super-mega-ultra concise version of Philip:

4. XS
6. XRηSTIANOS
8. XRS
15. XS XS
20. XRS XRS XS
21. XS
48. XS XS
51. XS XS XRS XS
53. XRηSTIANOS
59. XS
63. XRηSTIANOS
72. XRηSTIANOS XRS
75. XS XS
80. XS
86. XRS
90. XS
101. XRISTIANOS XS
103. XRηSTIANOS
108. XRISTIANOS
124. XS

SUMMARY:

XS = 17
XRS = 6
XRηSTIANOS = 5
XRISTIANOS = 2
TOTAL = 30

The NHL s a time capsule from the mid 4th century after the time in which the Christians or the Chrestians became aware they had become the emperor's sponsored "binding together" (religous) tool. Every single text therein is mute and we must make it speak.

The extract of Plato's Republic is not a "poor man's translation", nor is it "ineptly translated" as is commonly viewed by mainstream commentators. It reveals that the monsters of Plato's ancient fables "have now become natural creatures", and are loose in the Republic.

So we must try and read Philip as if he were trying to tell us something about the appearance of the XS, the XRS and the XRηSTIANOS and the XRISTIANOS.

My approach atm, wrongly or rightly, is to presume that Philip is responding to appearance and meaning of these codes and terms which were to be found in the Emperor's New Codices. It was a war of codices. We know who won. And when.

So Philip introduces these codes and terms one after the other in a certain context. Give me a few weeks to sift out a general outline.
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

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mlinssen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:13 amSo yeah, certainly no meek slavery in Thomas
Robert Grant in his book Augustus to Constantine: The Rise and Triumph of Christianity in the Roman World discusses the early Christian attitude to slavery at pp.269-270. Notably none of the Christians raised basic questions related to the equality of slaves, or considered for a moment the immorality of the institution of slavery.

At the conclusion of this section Grant writes

The idea that slavery is immoral because all men are equal before God is expressed only in the Gnostic "Acts of Thomas" [82-83].

1) Have you read the Acts of Thomas?

2) Does the Gospel of Thomas present the notion "that slavery is immoral because all men are equal"? I have read what you say above but am interested in your answer to this question.
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

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Leucius Charinus wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:49 pm
mlinssen wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:13 amSo yeah, certainly no meek slavery in Thomas
Robert Grant in his book Augustus to Constantine: The Rise and Triumph of Christianity in the Roman World discusses the early Christian attitude to slavery at pp.269-270. Notably none of the Christians raised basic questions related to the equality of slaves, or considered for a moment the immorality of the institution of slavery.

At the conclusion of this section Grant writes

The idea that slavery is immoral because all men are equal before God is expressed only in the Gnostic "Acts of Thomas" [82-83].

1) Have you read the Acts of Thomas?

2) Does the Gospel of Thomas present the notion "that slavery is immoral because all men are equal"? I have read what you say above but am interested in your answer to this question.
Scanned the Acts, it has no relation to Thomas whatsoever in the sense that it is related to its themes, thoughts, notions

It's really not that much work to read Thomas, it's half of Mark. I'm surprised that you ask questions like these given your theory about the NHL; I would expect you to have read the texts at least once, especially given your resume of them in

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Autho ... ndex.htm#1

Thomas doesn't deal with virtue like philosophy like that, he's not a Plato or Seneca. He's full of slaves of course, hence my choice for slaveowner to translate the Coptic equivalent of kurios.
Slavery allegedly was a big theme in the NT but no one has succeeded to demonstrate any of that, indeed. It is evident why there are so many slaves in the NT and why it's even a bit of a topic. 8 counts of slave and 15 of slaveowner in Thomas: Self and Ego
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

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mlinssen wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:10 amScanned the Acts, it has no relation to Thomas whatsoever in the sense that it is related to its themes, thoughts, notions
Have you checked "The Hymn of the Pearl" aka "The Hymn of the Soul" aka "The Robe of Glory". This is some form of ascetic allegory preserved separately in other ascetic literature. The author of the Acts of Thomas puts this into the mouth of Thomas who is languishing in an Indian jail. Here are four different translations:

The Hymn of the Pearl - Translation of William Wright (1871)
The Hymn of the Pearl - Translation of G.R.S. Mead (1900)
The Hymn of the Pearl - Narrative translation of Hans Jonas (1958)
The Hymn of the Pearl - Arabic translation by Salahi

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Hymn% ... 0Pearl.htm

Does this have any relation to Thomas at all?

Here's the Mead version:

When, a quite little child, I was dwelling
In the House of my Father’s Kingdom,

And in the wealth and the glories
Of my Up-bringers I was delighting,

From the East, our Home, my Parents
Forth-sent me with journey-provision.

Indeed from the wealth of our Treasure,
They bound up for me a load.

Large was it, yet was it so light
That all alone I could bear it.



Gold from the Land of Beth-Ellaya,
Silver from Gazak the Great,


Chalcedonies of India,
Iris-hued [Opals?] from Kãshan.

They girt me with Adamant [also]
That hath power to cut even iron.

My Glorious Robe they took off me
Which in their love they had wrought me,

And my Purple Mantle [also]
Which was woven to match with my stature.




And with me They [then] made a compact;
In my heart wrote it, not to forget it:

"If thou goest down into Egypt,
And thence thou bring’st the one Pearl --

"[The Pearl] that lies in the Sea,
Hard by the loud-breathing Serpent --

"[Then] shalt Thou put on thy Robe
And thy Mantle that goeth upon it,

"And with thy Brother, Our Second,
Shalt thou be Heir in our Kingdom."



I left the East and went down
With two Couriers [with me];

For the way was hard and dangerous,
For I was young to tread it.

I traversed the borders of Maish~ n,
The mart of the Eastern merchants,

And I reached the Land of Babel,
And entered the walls of Sarbãg.

Down further I went into Egypt;
And from me parted my escorts.



Straightway I went to the Serpent;
Near to his lodging I settled,

To take away my Pearl
While he should sleep and should slumber.

Lone was I there, yea, all lonely;
To my fellow-lodgers a stranger.

However I saw there a noble,
From out of the Dawn-land my kinsman,

A young man fair and well favoured,
Son of Grandees; he came and he joined me.



I made him my chosen companion,
A comrade, for sharing my wares with.

He warned me against the Egyptians,
’Gainst mixing with the unclean ones.

For I had clothed me as they were,
That they might not guess I had come

From afar to take off the Pearl,
And so rouse the Serpent against me.



But from some occasion or other
They learned I was not of their country.

With their wiles they made my acquaintance;
Yea, they gave me their victuals to eat.

I forgot that I was a King’s son,
And became a slave to their king.

I forgot all concerning the Pearl
For which my Parents had sent me;

And from the weight of their victuals
I sank down into a deep sleep.



All this that now was befalling,
My Parents perceived and were anxious.

It was then proclaimed in our Kingdom,
That all should speed to our Gate --

Kings and Chieftains of Parthia,
And of the East all the Princes.

And this is the counsel they came to:
I should not be left down in Egypt.

And for me they wrote out a Letter;
And to it each Noble his Name set:



"From Us -- King of Kings, thy Father,
And thy Mother, Queen of the Dawn-land,

"And from Our Second, thy Brother --
To thee, Son, down in Egypt, Our Greeting!

"Up an arise from thy sleep,
Give ear to the words of Our Letter!

"Remember that thou art a King’s son;
See whom thou hast served in thy slavedom.

Bethink thyself of the Pearl
For which thou didst journey to Egypt.



"Remember thy Glorious Robe,
Thy Splendid Mantle remember,

"To put on and wear as adornment,
When thy Name may be read in the Book of the Heroes,

"And with Our Successor, thy Brother,
Thou mayest be Heir in Our Kingdom."

My Letter was [surely] a Letter
The King had sealed up with His Right Hand,

’Gainst the Children of Babel, the wicked,
The tyrannical Daimons of Sarbãg.



It flew in the form of the Eagle,
Of all the winged tribes the king-bird;

It flew and alighted beside me,
And turned into speech altogether.

At its voice and the sound of its winging,
I waked and arose from my deep sleep.

Unto me I took it and kissed it;
I loosed its seal and I read it.

E’en as it stood in my heart writ,
The words of my Letter were written.



I remembered that I was a King’s son,
And my rank did long for its nature.

I bethought me again of the Pearl,
For which I was sent down to Egypt.

And I began [then] to charm him,
The terrible loud-breathing Serpent.

I lulled him to sleep and to slumber,
Chanting o’er him the Name of my Father,

The Name of our Second, [my Brother],
And [Name] of my Mother, the East-Queen.



And [thereon] I snatched up the Pearl,
And turned to the House of my Father.

Their filthy and unclean garments
I stripped off and left in their country.

To the way that I came I betook me,
To the Light of our Home, to the Dawn-land.

On the road I found [there] before me,
My Letter that had aroused me --

As with its voice it had roused me,
So now with its light it did lead me --



On fabric of silk, in letter of red [?],
With shining appearance before me [?],

Encouraging me with its guidance,
With its love it was drawing me onward.

I went forth; through Sarbãg I passed;
I left B~ bel-land on my left hand;

And I reached unto Maishan the Great,
The meeting-place of the merchants,

That lieth hard by the Sea-shore.



My Glorious Robe that I’d stripped off,
And my Mantle with which it was covered,

Down from the Heights of Hyrcania,
Thither my Parents did send me,

By the hands of their Treasure-dispensers
Who trustworthy were with it trusted.

Without my recalling its fashion, --
In the House of my Father my childhood had left it,--

At once, as soon as I saw it,
The Glory looked like my own self.



I saw it in all of me,
And saw me all in [all of] it, --

That we were twain in distinction,
And yet again one in one likeness.

I saw, too, the Treasurers also,
Who unto me had down-brought it,

Were twain [and yet] of one likeness;
For one Sign of the King was upon them --

Who through them restored me the Glory,
The Pledge of my Kingship [?].



The Glorious Robe all-bespangled
With sparkling splendour of colours:

With Gold and also with Beryls,
Chalcedonies, iris-hued [Opals?],

With Sards of varying colours.
To match its grandeur [?], moreover,
it had been completed:

With adamantine jewels
All of its seams were off-fastened.

[Moreover] the King of Kings’ Image
Was depicted entirely all o’er it;

And as with Sapphires above
Was it wrought in a motley of colour.



I saw that moreover all o’er it
The motions of Gnosis abounding;

I saw it further was making
Ready as though for to speak.

I heard the sound of its Music
Which it whispered as it descended [?]:

"Behold him the active in deeds!
For whom I was reared with my Father;

"I too have felt in myself
How that with his works waxed my stature."



And [now] with its Kingly motions
Was it pouring itself out towards me,

And made haste in the hands of its Givers,
That I might [take and] receive it.

And me, too, my love urged forward
To run for to meet it, to take it.

And I stretched myself forth to receive it;
With its beauty of colour I decked me,

And my Mantle of sparkling colours
I wrapped entirely all o’er me.



I clothed me therewith, and ascended
To the Gate of Greeting and Homage.

I bowed my head and did homage
To the Glory of Him who had sent it,

Whose commands I [now] had accomplished,
And who had, too, done what He’d promised.

[And there] at the Gate of His House-sons
I mingled myself with His Princes;

For He had received me with gladness,
And I was with Him in His Kingdom;



To whom the whole of His Servants
With sweet-sounding voices sing praises.


He had promised that with him to the Court
Of the King of Kings I should speed,

And taking with me my Pearl
Should with him be seen by our King.

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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

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Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:53 am
mlinssen wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:10 amScanned the Acts, it has no relation to Thomas whatsoever in the sense that it is related to its themes, thoughts, notions
Have you checked "The Hymn of the Pearl" aka "The Hymn of the Soul" aka "The Robe of Glory". This is some form of ascetic allegory preserved separately in other ascetic literature. The author of the Acts of Thomas puts this into the mouth of Thomas who is languishing in an Indian jail. Here are four different translations:

The Hymn of the Pearl - Translation of William Wright (1871)
The Hymn of the Pearl - Translation of G.R.S. Mead (1900)
The Hymn of the Pearl - Narrative translation of Hans Jonas (1958)
The Hymn of the Pearl - Arabic translation by Salahi

http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/Hymn% ... 0Pearl.htm

Does this have any relation to Thomas at all?

Here's the Mead version:
Saving bandwidth here. Of course this has nothing to do with Thomas in any way - look at the style, the abundance of locations. This is Psalms like stuff. As you say yourself, ascetic allegory

So you think this was written by Thomas? I don't understand

Besides that, the India story is rubbish. Perhaps Thomas was there and went there again, but certainly not in order to establish a religion
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 8:30 am
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:53 am The Hymn of the Pearl. ---- Does this have any relation to Thomas at all?
Saving bandwidth here. Of course this has nothing to do with Thomas in any way - look at the style, the abundance of locations. This is Psalms like stuff. As you say yourself, ascetic allegory
I was looking at the themes. The "Hymn of the Pearl" is definitely a non-Christian text. I think we agree that Thomas in a non-Christian text. Your translation of gThomas mentions "fast(ing)" five times. This is a common theme for example. There may be others.
So you think this was written by Thomas? I don't understand
No. I am seeking in general to find what connections exist (if at all) between the Gospel of Thomas and any other texts outside the NT canonical literature.

What's your opinion on
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/sent.html
The Sentences of Sextus --- A "Saying's List" from NHC 12.1
  • Sometimes described as Gnostic - Hellenistic Pythagorean: The work is similar to the sayings gospels Gospel of Phillip and Gospel of Thomas in that it is purely a collection of sayings, with no bridging framework. Unlike the Christian sayings gospels, the wisdom comes from a man named Sextus rather than Jesus. Sextus appears to have been a Pythagorean.
How are the "Sayings of Thomas" and the "Sayings of Sextus" related to each other if at all. Both were physically published by the same crew who physically manufactured the Nag Hammadi library.

The "Sayings of Philip" represent a third NHL sayings list. How are these three sayings lists related (if at all) given that they are each found in the NHL --- a physical time capsule from the mid 4th century.

IDK.

Besides that, the India story is rubbish. Perhaps Thomas was there and went there again, but certainly not in order to establish a religion
The India story could have been written by Monty Python.

The apostles are standing around casting lots for the nations - like the Roman soldiers casting lots for the raiment. Perhaps earlier they had cast lots and Matthew was chosen to travel, for the preaching of the Chrestos News, to the Land of the Cannibals. Matthew went. But when Thomas draws the lot to go to India he refuses to go. So Jesus turns up in a dream and orders Thomas to go to India. But Thomas simply refuses again. Next day Jesus takes Thomas to the slave yard, sells Thomas to an Indian merchant bound for India, and receives a bill of sale in exchange. FFS. This is comedy not history.
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Post by mlinssen »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:11 pm I was looking at the themes. The "Hymn of the Pearl" is definitely a non-Christian text. I think we agree that Thomas in a non-Christian text. Your translation of gThomas mentions "fast(ing)" five times. This is a common theme for example. There may be others.
Don't do bean counting, that won't get you anywhere. Fasting appears in an immensely negative context only in Thomas, and I'll make an exception for "Fasting from the World"
The India story could have been written by Monty Python.

The apostles are standing around casting lots for the nations - like the Roman soldiers casting lots for the raiment. Perhaps earlier they had cast lots and Matthew was chosen to travel, for the preaching of the Chrestos News, to the Land of the Cannibals. Matthew went. But when Thomas draws the lot to go to India he refuses to go. So Jesus turns up in a dream and orders Thomas to go to India. But Thomas simply refuses again. Next day Jesus takes Thomas to the slave yard, sells Thomas to an Indian merchant bound for India, and receives a bill of sale in exchange. FFS. This is comedy not history.
Yes, as I said the story is rubbish. Yet Thomas undeniably has Eastern ingredients in his soup, and where there's smoke there's fire - I think that, given his incredible word wizardry, that the easier solution is that the East came to him then vice versa. He likely read a lot of "books from the East" - his anti-Judaic stance requires a substantial stay close to them, unless something dramatic happened

Either way, I just scanned The Sentences of Sextus. Stoic stuff, Socrates, virtue and all that. I'll read up later but it's a bit dumb, usually there needs to be an explanation to simple rules like these. Check Epictetus and such, this just looks like a combination of the lesser side of both Thomas and those: no explanation yet no riddles either.
Reminds me a bit of the next list:

The sun comes up in the East.
A fire is hottest at its core.
You can only know that what you say makes sense if you listen while you speak.
If you want to throw dirt at someone, beat wait until it's dry or you will get it onto yourself
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Post by mlinssen »

Done with the dumb sayings, they're nauseating

(345) It is better to die than to darken the soul because of the immoderation of the belly.

Have you done the "word count" for god in Thomas? And seen that it is used only as something irrelevant?
You can keep throwing texts like these at me, but why don't you read Thomas for yourself? Or am I so very biased when I say that it clearly has nothing to do with religion?

Honestly, could well be. Just asking
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Re: The self-evident emergence of Christianity

Post by Jair »

mlinssen wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 10:38 am Done with the dumb sayings, they're nauseating

(345) It is better to die than to darken the soul because of the immoderation of the belly.

Have you done the "word count" for god in Thomas? And seen that it is used only as something irrelevant?
You can keep throwing texts like these at me, but why don't you read Thomas for yourself? Or am I so very biased when I say that it clearly has nothing to do with religion?

Honestly, could well be. Just asking
After reading through the thread so far I looked up a translation of GThomas. Logion 27 seems very religious to me, as it is specifically about Shabbat observance. Is this one to be interpreted as an interpolation? Could I be reading a poor translation?
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