What is the correct date for Jesus last supper/passover?

[John T]

Hi JohnT,
The sticking point for me is that the 364 day calendar used by the sectarians who left their literature in the Qumran area caves (not at all convinced that they were "Essenes") is not, as far as I know, securely cross dated with the lunar calendar used by the local authorities.

Where did you see a source that says these three groups observed the Passover on the same day in 30 CE? A link would be cool.

Thanks!
DCH

Here is one example.

http://jesus-messiah.com/html/passover- ... -34ad.html

The above site claims the calculations come from the US Navy Astronomical Department calculations. I have no way of knowing how to fact check the claim. Those kind of astronomical calculations are way out of my depth of field.

Geza Vermes, expressed much the same concern as you. "One practical consequence of the sect's [Essene] adherence to a calendar at variance with that of the rest of Judaism was that its feast-days were working days for other Jews and vice versa."..pg 79 The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English.

What is not in dispute is that for the Essenes the first day of the year always fell on a Wednesday, and Passover, the fifteenth day of the first month is also always on a Wednesday. Passover in 30 C.E. fell on Wednesday for both Essene and Jew. Apparently, Vermes was not aware of this coincidence.

As far as how the Essenes corrected for the astronomical calculation of 365 days 5 hours 48 minutes and 48 seconds is unknown. Likely, they would simply add a leap day as needed.

Finally, identifying the Qumran community as Essene is out of convenience. I do not claim the scribes of the Dead Sea Scrolls called themselves Essene but based on the writings of Josephus it is more likely than not.

If I'm right on all this, the discrepancies in the gospels are rectified when it comes to determining the date of the Last Supper and the crucifixion of Jesus: April, 30 C.E.

[John T]

I don't need the Essene calendar, but made use of Josephus (as shown in http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html).
Bernard

So, your answer is "no". That is, you don't care to factor in the Essene calendar.
Likewise, I don't care to read a dissertation that does not factor in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Take care.
John T

[Trees of Life]

What is the best date for the Passover/Last Supper of Jesus?

Your thread asks, 'What is the correct date for Jesus last supper/passover?' Why mince matters by asking, 'What is the best date for the Passover/Last Supper of Jesus?'

[John T]

What is the best date for the Passover/Last Supper of Jesus?

Your thread asks, 'What is the correct date for Jesus last supper/passover?' Why mince matters by asking, 'What is the best date for the Passover/Last Supper of Jesus?'

I'm not sure what you are getting at.
The last supper was a sacramental act to be performed on a specific day of the year. I think the best date is April, 30 C.E. if indeed that is the correct date, it turns over the apple cart for most Christian denominations that celebrate Easter on Sunday instead of the Sabbath.
That day was directly tied to Passover. Yet, the church leaders centuries later changed the date to separate Christians from Jews.
Also atheists/mythicists use the apparent discrepancy in Mark and John to prove that Jesus did not exist because the calendar in the gospels is wrong.
You don't have to believe in the meaning of the new sacrament given by Jesus but you can't say it never happened because the dates don't match up.
One less arrow in the quiver for the atheists.

[ABuddhist]

Also atheists/mythicists use the apparent discrepancy in Mark and John to prove that Jesus did not exist because the calendar in the gospels is wrong.

Once again, you conflate atheists and mythicists. Also, can you provide any citation of any mythicist arguing that because Mark and John used the wrong calendar, Jesus did not exist? I am more familiar with claims that they were unfamiliar with Jewish traditions and beliefs (which fits with either mythicism or historicism).

[Trees of Life]

What is the best date for the Passover/Last Supper of Jesus?

Your thread asks, 'What is the correct date for Jesus last supper/passover?' Why mince matters by asking, 'What is the best date for the Passover/Last Supper of Jesus?'

I'm not sure what you are getting at.

If you want a 'correct' answer, why do you seek an answer according to your 'best' calculation.

[John T]

If you want a 'correct' answer, why do you seek an answer according to your 'best' calculation.

I am trying to rule out/in my best 'calculation' with mathematical certainty. I don't have the astronomical/mathematical skills to convert the days of the week with the Creator's Calendar for 14th Abib, the Jewish calendar 14th of Nisan, the Julian calendar, and finally the current Gregorian calendar.

Do you?

Until I can confirm from independent sources using astronomical tables, the best calculation appears to be from Pastor G. Reckart for April 6, 30 C.E. However, I'm not even sure of that and it could be April 9th 27 C.E.
You gotta check and recheck the figures six ways to Sunday.

What I am sure about is the Essenes used the Creator's Calendar, meaning Passover was always on a Wednesday. At times that fell in line with the typical Jewish observance of the 1st century and later the Gregorian calendar.

"First of all this month [April 2014] was in sync with the Creator’s calendar, the Jewish calendar, and the secular calendar also known as the Gregorian solar calendar. It is more likely for the days from each calendar to differ than to coincide with one another. It is even more unlikely for all three to be in sync like the case is this year."...Michael Urioste

https://torahbelievers.wordpress.com/20 ... or-abib-2/

What is not in doubt is the current formula for Easter by most Christian denominations is not based on the date for Passover.

Than you for your question.

John T

[Charles Wilson]

You also have to take into account the undercurrent of Symbolism:

John 2: 19 - 22 (RSV):

[19] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
[21] But he spoke of the temple of his body.
[22] When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Verse 21 is "obvious" as an Interpolation, as if a panicked "Put out the fire moment". Much mischief follows from this mis-applied bandage: "Jesus was 46 years old" and so on.
Verse 22 is revealed as suspect as well. "The disciples remembered..." is suspect. "Oh, uhhh, you're correct. I remember it all, now..." No. Doesn't work that way.

So that leaves the complex Symbolism in verses 19 and 20. You must find out how the Judaic Culture saw this. What is it about Passover and the Feast?

John 19: 31 (RSV):

[31] Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

This complex Passage points to an argument that is seen from the Roman POV. The bottom line is that there may be *TWO* Sabbaths in a single week. Separated by three days and three nights.

You must find Passovers that are separated by these 3 days and that narrows down the Passovers and Feasts from the weekly Sabbath.

CW

[John T]

You must find Passovers that are separated by these 3 days and that narrows down the Passovers and Feasts from the weekly Sabbath.
CW

I agree.

Passover i.e. Wednesday is a sabbath and three days later you have the weekly sabbath, i.e. Saturday.
I could quote the Torah but I think you already know that to be true.

Thanks for your help.

John T

[Trees of Life]

If you want a 'correct' answer, why do you seek an answer according to your 'best' calculation.

I am trying to rule out/in my best 'calculation' with mathematical certainty. I don't have the astronomical/mathematical skills to convert the days of the week with the Creator's Calendar for 14th Abib, the Jewish calendar 14th of Nisan, the Julian calendar, and finally the current Gregorian calendar.

Do you?

Until I can confirm from independent sources using astronomical tables, the best calculation appears to be from Pastor G. Reckart for April 6, 30 C.E. However, I'm not even sure of that and it could be April 9th 27 C.E.
You gotta check and recheck the figures six ways to Sunday.

What I am sure about is the Essenes used the Creator's Calendar, meaning Passover was always on a Wednesday. At times that fell in line with the typical Jewish observance of the 1st century and later the Gregorian calendar.

"First of all this month [April 2014] was in sync with the Creator’s calendar, the Jewish calendar, and the secular calendar also known as the Gregorian solar calendar. It is more likely for the days from each calendar to differ than to coincide with one another. It is even more unlikely for all three to be in sync like the case is this year."...Michael Urioste

https://torahbelievers.wordpress.com/20 ... or-abib-2/

What is not in doubt is the current formula for Easter by most Christian denominations is not based on the date for Passover.

Than you for your question.

John T

You quote from my post in which I wrote, 'If you want a 'correct' answer, why do you seek an answer according to your 'best' calculation.' The sentence has no question mark, and no question was asked. The text was in reply to your post in which you wrote, 'I'm not sure what you are getting at.'