Thoughts about Dating Revalation to John to Hadrian's Time

[neilgodfrey]

I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Who has argued that? (apart from mountainman)

[ABuddhist]

So, if Revelation, which Gmirkin, many mythicists, and even some Christians (albeit obliquely!) note is a very primitive Christian text, dates to the time of Hadrian (as argued in Witulski, Thomas.

There you go again.
Who are these so-called; "many" mythicists you are referring too?
I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Remind me again, when did Richard Carrier, et. al. say the myth of Jesus begin?

Thank you in advance.

John T

You reveal yourself to be very ignorant of the forms which mythicism can take. But I am patient and will answer you. Replying to Christians' allegations about my "grate gawd Bood [sic]" - in reality the Buddha Gotama, Sage of the Shakyans, teacher of gods and humans, true victor, etc. (not to be confused with the Buddha Amitabha), - has taughten to me patience.

The many mythicists who claim that Revelation is a primitive text are Doherty, Carrier, and Couchoud (if I understand correctly). My central point was not that Revelation to John is often agreed by mythicists to be primitive, but rather that prominent mythicists agree with non-mythicists, such as Gmirkin and some Christian scholars, that the Revelation to John is primitive. So feel free to replace "many" with "multiple".

As for your claim that mythicists believe that Christianity did not exist during Hadrian's time, some hold this view, but others do not. Some accept that it began around the 30s CE, others place it during the 50s around 70 CE, or in the 1st century BCE (for an example of which, see: https://www.debunking-christianity.com/ ... -bart.html )

But Dr. Richard Carrier and Earl Doherty assume that Christrianity beginned during the 1st century CE (See here ( http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/supp08.htm ) for Doherty and here ( https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18613 ) for Dr. Carrier), and Dr. Carrier has even writed a refutation of claims by other mythicists that Christianity arised during the 4th century CE: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18047 .

[ABuddhist]

I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Who has argued that? (apart from mountainman)

I know - what a staggering ignorance of the mythicists' claims such an assertion reveals - in turn undermining my confidence in his confidence that mythicism is false.

[John T]

I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Who has argued that? (apart from mountainman)

It is all so confusing just who all those "many" mythcists are and what they believe or don't believe.
Perhaps you can shed some light on your understanding who ABuddhist is referring too?

Don't you find it strange how I have to provide quotes, names, and dates for ABuddhist regarding mythicists (which I'm happy to do) but not the other-way around?

Away, the book of Revelation was written in the 1st century and the number of the beast was code for Titus according to "many" mythcists.

[John T]

So, if Revelation, which Gmirkin, many mythicists, and even some Christians (albeit obliquely!) note is a very primitive Christian text, dates to the time of Hadrian (as argued in Witulski, Thomas.

There you go again.
Who are these so-called; "many" mythicists you are referring too?
I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Remind me again, when did Richard Carrier, et. al. say the myth of Jesus begin?

Thank you in advance.

John T

But Dr. Richard Carrier and Earl Doherty assume that Christrianity beginned during the 1st century CE (See here ( http://www.jesuspuzzle.com/jesuspuzzle/supp08.htm ) for Doherty and here ( https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18613 ) for Dr. Carrier), and Dr. Carrier has even writed a refutation of claims by other mythicists that Christianity arised during the 4th century CE: https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/18047 .

Please provide a quote from your sources as to the exact year they say the myth of Jesus started.
Also, please provide a quote that they say you can be both a mythicist and a Christian at the same time.

Thanks in advance.

John T

[MrMacSon]

I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Who has argued that?

I'd argue that orthodox Christianity did not 'exhibit' until the end of the 2nd century.

I think a key question is: " What forms of Christianity existed in, say, 140—150 AD/CE ? "

• Most if not all forms of Christianity then could be 'Gnostic'-Christian (for want of a better term)

• M David Litwa has
  
  • Simon of Samaria ................. 35-70 CE
    (so Simonians from then)
    Menander .......................... 60—100 CE
    Cerinthus .......................... 70—110 CE
    Nicolaitans ........................ 90—100 CE
    Saturninus ......................... 90—100 CE
    Euphrates and Akembes ....... 120—200 CE
    Marcion ........................... 120—160 CE
    Seed of Seth ..................... 130—400 CE
    Basidides ......................... 130—160 CE
    Carpcrates ....................... 130—160 CE
    Valentinus ........................ 130—160 CE
    Ptolemy .......................... 140—152 CE or 180 CE
    Julius Cassianus ................. 145—180 CE
    Heracleon ........................ 150—180 CE
    Marcus ............................ 150—180 CE
    Tatian ............................. 150—180 CE
    Marcellina ........................ 160—180 CE
    Apelles ............................ 160—195 CE
    Noetus .............................160—195 CE
    Philume
    Prodicus
    Theodotus the Shoemaker
    Florinus
    Justin (author of Baruch)
    [The] Naasseene Preacher ...... 190—220 CE
    Sethians in Refutations ......... 190—220 CE
  (Found Christianities)

That list may well not be exhaustive and, of course, would be debateable

I would argue that Justin Martyr precedes or is perhaps contemporaneous with concrete development of and evidence for the canonical gospels

[MrMacSon]

... I would not be surprised if we might one day learn that Revelation was (at least one of) the earliest of our canonical writings and that all the others likewise were produced from the 130s (though I would allow for possible exceptions with some of Paul and Odes of Solomon and maybe Ascension of Isaiah)

I wouldn't be surprised, either

[ABuddhist]

I thought 'mythcists' do not believe Christianity even existed during the time of Hadrian.

Who has argued that? (apart from mountainman)

It is all so confusing just who all those "many" mythcists are and what they believe or don't believe.
Perhaps you can shed some light on your understanding who ABuddhist is referring too?

Don't you find it strange how I have to provide quotes, names, and dates for ABuddhist regarding mythicists (which I'm happy to do) but not the other-way around?

Away, the book of Revelation was written in the 1st century and the number of the beast was code for Titus according to "many" mythcists.

1. Mythicists certainly believe a diversity of views and can disagree with each other and nonmythicists, as I and others, including Neil Godfrey, have pointed out to you, but the same can be said about atheists, theists, Christians and Buddhists, all of whom disagree with each other and non-Xes about various things. The best solution, I find, in all cases, is to avoid speaking about generalities but to mention particulars. My particular within this thread was not the precise beliefs of many mythicists (about revelation to John or anything else) but rather how prominent mythicists, secular non-mythicist scholars, and Christians agree that Revelation to John is a primitive text.

2. When did I ask you to provide names, quotations, and dates about mythicists? I honestly cannot recall such an encounter. In any case, such a provision of resources is not strange given that we are engaging in discussion about scholarly matters - in my job, I often cite from documents when writing about scholarly issues.

3. If you are not being sarcastic in your claim about the Revelation to John, such a claim is not as outrageous as it may seem. Witulski (a non-mythicist scholar) argues that the Beast was Hadrian, and Titus, midway between Nero and Hadrian, would at least fit chronologically with a 90s CE composition date. If you are being sarcastic, then I apologize - detecting written humour is difficult for me, especially from strangers.

[MrMacSon]

I am not saying that I agree with such dating, but I have some thoughts about Christian origins if such were to be true.

So, if Revelation, which Gmirkin, many mythicists, and even some Christians (albeit obliquely!) note is a very primitive Christian text, dates to the time of Hadrian (as argued in Witulski, Thomas. Die Johannesoffenbarung Und Kaiser Hadrian: Studien Zur Datierung Der Neutestamentlichen Apokalypse. Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 2007.), would this mean that Christianity only arose during that time period?

There'd still be a lot to unpack eg. what form/s of Christianity would have arisen when? ..

Such a dating would fit with claims by later Christian apologists that Christianity remained united until the time of Hadrian, if one keep in mind the fact (emphasized by Doherty) that the early Christian movement was theologically diverse.

That doesn't make sense: the two main premises (before and after the comma) are not related or not relatable

According, therefore to a model in which Christianity arose during Hadrian’s time (which I am not supporting, just considering), later proto-Orthodox Christians, wanting to add authority and antiquity to their movement, acknowledged the real diversity at their religion’s beginning but invented an earlier, unified, past in order to give to their proto-Orthodox Christianity more authority.

Certainly later Christians, such as Irenaeus, Tertuallian, etc, wanted or gave the impression that they wanted there to be a 'history' there had been a consistent Christian actual orthodox past. Right back to the time of Jesus. But their only acknowledgement of the real diversity at their religion’s beginning was to strongly imply that that diversity was the result of 'heretics' trying to butcher or actually butchering orthodoxy

[ABuddhist]

Such a dating would fit with claims by later Christian apologists that Christianity remained united until the time of Hadrian, if one keep in mind the fact (emphasized by Doherty) that the early Christian movement was theologically diverse.

That doesn't make sense: the two main premises (before and after the comma) are not related or not relatable

To clarify, my argument was that because later Christianity crushed/assimilated earlier diverse forms of Christianity, and because scholarship has increasingly come to recognize that Christianity was diverse from the beginning, this acknowledgement that Christianity was diverse from Hadrian's time could be interpreted as evidence that it began during Hadrian's time.

Not that I agree with this claim - I am just considering it.