The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by ABuddhist »

Jair wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:58 pm If we remove any Christ-interpretation from the Lamb passages in Revelation, we are left with some very odd passages where an actual sacrificial lamb is being depicted as worthy of praise and worship equal to that of the one “who sits on the throne”. Wouldn’t this be considered far too blasphemous to be a Judaic text?
Judaism during the 1st century CE was more diverse than you may think, though. The Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, and the Sadducees are only the tip of the ice berg, as it were. Jews were willing in that time to worship a second power in heaven. Margaret Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. London: SPCK; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992 (ISBN 0281045925) is a useful introduction to such theology.

Jesus is a human sacrifice whom Christians (originally a Jewish sect) worship as equal to YHWH, in which context worshipping a lamb sacrifice becomes less outrageous.
Jair
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by Jair »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:18 am
Jair wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:58 pm If we remove any Christ-interpretation from the Lamb passages in Revelation, we are left with some very odd passages where an actual sacrificial lamb is being depicted as worthy of praise and worship equal to that of the one “who sits on the throne”. Wouldn’t this be considered far too blasphemous to be a Judaic text?
Judaism during the 1st century CE was more diverse than you may think, though. The Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, and the Sadducees are only the tip of the ice berg, as it were. Jews were willing in that time to worship a second power in heaven. Margaret Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. London: SPCK; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992 (ISBN 0281045925) is a useful introduction to such theology.

Jesus is a human sacrifice whom Christians (originally a Jewish sect) worship as equal to YHWH, in which context worshipping a lamb sacrifice becomes less outrageous.
Doesn’t this argument rely on the mainstream hypothesis of Christianity moving away from Judaism though? How does the argument work from a hypothesis of gnostic priority of Christianity? (I don’t adhere to this hypothesis, in fact I’m a practicing Christian, but I am genuinely curious. I find this sort of thing fascinating.)

Are you more in the camp of the canonical gospels having very low Christology and therefore could be considered Judaic in nature? Or more in the gnostic camp?

Or, do you think a non-christianized interpretation of Revelation is better understood as coming from a potential Jewish Gnostic sect, as opposed to more classic Saddusaic Judaism of the time? I apologize if I ask a lot of questions but I’m still trying to compartmentalize all of the theories out there. It’s confusing because some of them seem to overlap.
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by ABuddhist »

Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:16 am
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:18 am
Jair wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:58 pm If we remove any Christ-interpretation from the Lamb passages in Revelation, we are left with some very odd passages where an actual sacrificial lamb is being depicted as worthy of praise and worship equal to that of the one “who sits on the throne”. Wouldn’t this be considered far too blasphemous to be a Judaic text?
Judaism during the 1st century CE was more diverse than you may think, though. The Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, and the Sadducees are only the tip of the ice berg, as it were. Jews were willing in that time to worship a second power in heaven. Margaret Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. London: SPCK; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992 (ISBN 0281045925) is a useful introduction to such theology.

Jesus is a human sacrifice whom Christians (originally a Jewish sect) worship as equal to YHWH, in which context worshipping a lamb sacrifice becomes less outrageous.
Doesn’t this argument rely on the mainstream hypothesis of Christianity moving away from Judaism though? How does the argument work from a hypothesis of gnostic priority of Christianity? (I don’t adhere to this hypothesis, in fact I’m a practicing Christian, but I am genuinely curious. I find this sort of thing fascinating.)

Are you more in the camp of the canonical gospels having very low Christology and therefore could be considered Judaic in nature? Or more in the gnostic camp?

Or, do you think a non-christianized interpretation of Revelation is better understood as coming from a potential Jewish Gnostic sect, as opposed to more classic Saddusaic Judaism of the time? I apologize if I ask a lot of questions but I’m still trying to compartmentalize all of the theories out there. It’s confusing because some of them seem to overlap.
No need to worry about asking questions to me.

I certainly think that Christianity originated within Judaism, although I suspect that its initial spreaders to gentiles may have operated in ways akin to Yogi Bhajan with Sikhism among non-Sikh Americans - inflating their credentials, making things up, and being motivated by the money.

I have neither knowledge of Gnosticism nor arrogance to claim knowledge about it except insofar as I doubt that Basilides was influenced by Buddhism. Some Jewish sects may have gone in gnostic ways, but I doubt that the Revelation to John is a text from such a sect because the text does not portray the world's creator as evil and not in ultimate control. Rather, I see Revelation to John as possibly from a general Jewish apocalyptic prophecy tradition - although I lack the expertise to assess whether it was originally with no Christian content at all. If the Christian content was an addition, though, then the original text would have been from a Jewish sect dedicated to some type of sacrificial lamb - probably some type of angel. Cf., for example, Hebrews's casting Jesus as a heavenly high priest - a fascinating counterpart to a heavenly lamb!

As for the gospels, they were, I think, derived from Jewish scriptures about certain extraordinary times and from the Pauline letters - with the possible exception of GJohn, which was derived from GMark, the Johannine letters, and Appellean Christianity. Whether any of the writers of the gospels were Gnostic and merely using Jewish sources as ways to advance gnosticism I know not, lacking such expertise.
Jair
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by Jair »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:29 am
Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:16 am
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:18 am
Jair wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:58 pm If we remove any Christ-interpretation from the Lamb passages in Revelation, we are left with some very odd passages where an actual sacrificial lamb is being depicted as worthy of praise and worship equal to that of the one “who sits on the throne”. Wouldn’t this be considered far too blasphemous to be a Judaic text?
Judaism during the 1st century CE was more diverse than you may think, though. The Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, and the Sadducees are only the tip of the ice berg, as it were. Jews were willing in that time to worship a second power in heaven. Margaret Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. London: SPCK; Louisville, KY: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1992 (ISBN 0281045925) is a useful introduction to such theology.

Jesus is a human sacrifice whom Christians (originally a Jewish sect) worship as equal to YHWH, in which context worshipping a lamb sacrifice becomes less outrageous.
Doesn’t this argument rely on the mainstream hypothesis of Christianity moving away from Judaism though? How does the argument work from a hypothesis of gnostic priority of Christianity? (I don’t adhere to this hypothesis, in fact I’m a practicing Christian, but I am genuinely curious. I find this sort of thing fascinating.)

Are you more in the camp of the canonical gospels having very low Christology and therefore could be considered Judaic in nature? Or more in the gnostic camp?

Or, do you think a non-christianized interpretation of Revelation is better understood as coming from a potential Jewish Gnostic sect, as opposed to more classic Saddusaic Judaism of the time? I apologize if I ask a lot of questions but I’m still trying to compartmentalize all of the theories out there. It’s confusing because some of them seem to overlap.
No need to worry about asking questions to me.

I certainly think that Christianity originated within Judaism, although I suspect that its initial spreaders to gentiles may have operated in ways akin to Yogi Bhajan with Sikhism among non-Sikh Americans - inflating their credentials, making things up, and being motivated by the money.

I have neither knowledge of Gnosticism nor arrogance to claim knowledge about it except insofar as I doubt that Basilides was influenced by Buddhism. Some Jewish sects may have gone in gnostic ways, but I doubt that the Revelation to John is a text from such a sect because the text does not portray the world's creator as evil and not in ultimate control. Rather, I see Revelation to John as possibly from a general Jewish apocalyptic prophecy tradition - although I lack the expertise to assess whether it was originally with no Christian content at all. If the Christian content was an addition, though, then the original text would have been from a Jewish sect dedicated to some type of sacrificial lamb - probably some type of angel. Cf., for example, Hebrews's casting Jesus as a heavenly high priest - a fascinating counterpart to a heavenly lamb!

As for the gospels, they were, I think, derived from Jewish scriptures about certain extraordinary times and from the Pauline letters - with the possible exception of GJohn, which was derived from GMark, the Johannine letters, and Appellean Christianity. Whether any of the writers of the gospels were Gnostic and merely using Jewish sources as ways to advance gnosticism I know not, lacking such expertise.
This explains your interpretation very well and is very helpful. I want to ask about Jewish willingness to worship a second power in heaven. On the surface this would seem to break Torah commandments. Do you think it’s a possibility that this practice was justified with the emphasis of said power being secondary to God? So that the argument could be made “You shall not worship any gods before Me” was not violated by this practice so long as it was abundantly clear that this being was specifically secondary, and therefore not considered “before” God?
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by ABuddhist »

Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:55 am This explains your interpretation very well and is very helpful. I want to ask about Jewish willingness to worship a second power in heaven. On the surface this would seem to break Torah commandments. Do you think it’s a possibility that this practice was justified with the emphasis of said power being secondary to God? So that the argument could be made “You shall not worship any gods before Me” was not violated by this practice so long as it was abundantly clear that this being was specifically secondary, and therefore not considered “before” God?
I am generally cynical about the willingness and ability of all religious traditions (including my own!) to justify deviation from certain precepts, commandments, and time-tables.

But without having researched the issue in any way aside from surface, your justification seems very plausible. You may also find interesting the Yezidi practise of worshipping 7 angels who, they allege, have been assigned sphere of authority by the uncreated creator god who formed them from his essence. 6 of these angels have allegedly been incarnated upon the Earth at times.
Last edited by ABuddhist on Mon Apr 25, 2022 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jair
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by Jair »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:13 pm
Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:55 am This explains your interpretation very well and is very helpful. I want to ask about Jewish willingness to worship a second power in heaven. On the surface this would seem to break Torah commandments. Do you think it’s a possibility that this practice was justified with the emphasis of said power being secondary to God? So that the argument could be made “You shall not worship any gods before Me” was not violated by this practice so long as it was abundantly clear that this being was specifically secondary, and therefore not considered “before” God?
I am generally cynical about the willingness and ability of all religious traditions (including my own!) to justify deviation from certain precepts, commandments, and time-tables.

But without having researched the issue in any way aside from surface, your justification seems very plausible. You may also find interesting the Yezidi practise of worshipping 7 angels who, they allege, have been assigned sphere of authority by the uncreated creator god who formed them them from his essence. 6 of these angels have allegedly been incarnated upon the Earth at times.
That is VERY interesting as that could have very strong parallels in Revelation. Granted, 7 was an important number going way back in ANE religion (well, 70, to be more precise) but the 7 spirits of God are mentioned in Revelation, and, IIRC 7 angels are depicted as well.
ABuddhist
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:36 am

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by ABuddhist »

Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:28 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 12:13 pm
Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:55 am This explains your interpretation very well and is very helpful. I want to ask about Jewish willingness to worship a second power in heaven. On the surface this would seem to break Torah commandments. Do you think it’s a possibility that this practice was justified with the emphasis of said power being secondary to God? So that the argument could be made “You shall not worship any gods before Me” was not violated by this practice so long as it was abundantly clear that this being was specifically secondary, and therefore not considered “before” God?
I am generally cynical about the willingness and ability of all religious traditions (including my own!) to justify deviation from certain precepts, commandments, and time-tables.

But without having researched the issue in any way aside from surface, your justification seems very plausible. You may also find interesting the Yezidi practise of worshipping 7 angels who, they allege, have been assigned sphere of authority by the uncreated creator god who formed them them from his essence. 6 of these angels have allegedly been incarnated upon the Earth at times.
That is VERY interesting as that could have very strong parallels in Revelation. Granted, 7 was an important number going way back in ANE religion (well, 70, to be more precise) but the 7 spirits of God are mentioned in Revelation, and, IIRC 7 angels are depicted as well.
Indeed, and although the origins of Yezidism are obscure but may post-date Christianity, Yezidism suggests a way in which angel-worship can develop out of monotheism.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by MrMacSon »

ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:18 am ... Christians (originally a Jewish sect) ...
Not necessarily, and, with increasing commentary about evidence of influence of both Greco-Roman literature and Roman imperial tropes in the NT literature, it's less likely Christianity arose directly out of Judaism or directly via a Jewish sect.

There's evidence of both para-Jewish influences (such as via so-called 'gnostic' sects and their literature) and so-called Judaizing of them. Scholarship is only just beginning the deep dive into this (although the excerpts below show it began with some scholars at least 14 years ago).

One example is the fairly-broad Valentinian, early Christian literature: from it's slightly different creation myths, each with different key aeons and other entities eg. Sophia/Wisdom or Logos, to it's alignment with Marcionism


Wisdom is introduced in the Valentinian myths of origin as one of the eternal beings (aeons) issuing from the Father of All. As the youngest member of the divine family, dwelling at the greatest distance from the Father, she disrupts the peace of the divine household acting by herself, without having due permission from her consort, Desired, or from the Father. In this way, Wisdom generates imperfection that needs to be removed from the perfect realm of Fullness. From this point on, two stories are intertwined in the Valentinian myth of Wisdom. One is an account of the cosmic consequences of her action. The most important of them is the emergence of the imperfect Creator-God (demiurge), who creates a defective world outside the divine realm. The other story is that of Wisdom herself. The flawed part of her is expelled from the perfect realm; an account of the repentance, conversion, and restitution of this part follows [in the myth]

... similar stories of Wisdom’s failure can be found in other early Christian sources ...

The clearest indication of the pragmatic value of the Wisdom myth is its recapitulation in a Valentinian deathbed ritual called “redemption” (apolutrōsis). For those Valentinians who performed this ritual, the Wisdom myth was salvific knowledge. However, the practice of the redemption ritual...was not common to all Valentinians ...

... this myth contains other features connected to issues that were of vital importance to ancient schools of thought ... the Valentinian myth emphasizes Wisdom’s conversion, which corresponds to the demand for conversion in philosophical schools ...

... the most noteworthy feature in the Valentinian myth of Wisdom is the keen interest shown toward the emotions she experiences during her temporary exile from the divine realm. Her feelings of love, joy, loneliness, and sadness are connected with the key moments of the story. Emotions account for Wisdom’s action in the divine realm, they characterize her sojourn outside the divine realm [elsewhere: hē ektos plērōmatos Sophia], and they are presented as forming the basic material from which the world was created ...

... emotions were discussed with great intensity in ancient schools of philosophy, since the therapy of emotions was perhaps the most important advantage the teachers in these schools promised to their students ...

... Valentinian teachers were engaged in the broader discussion about the healing of harmful emotions and that this engagement becomes visible in their interpretations of the myth of Wisdom. What Valentinians had to offer in the intellectual marketplace of their time was a distinctly Christian theory of how desire can be cured. For them, Christ was the healer who “came to restore the emotions of the soul.” Or, seen from another perspective, Valentinians contextualized their faith in Christ by expressing it in terms that made it seem more understandable, and more readily acceptable, to those having received a philosophical education.


Ismo Dunderberg, Beyond Gnosticism: Myth, Lifestyle and Society in the School of Valentinus, Columbia University Press, 2008: pp.95-7.



On origins and/or sources:


The tale of Wisdom’s fall was no innovation of the Valentinians. They took it over from an earlier tradition and expanded certain elements that were already present in previous versions of this myth. The background of the myth of Wisdom’s fall has been approached from several perspectives. First, scholars have traced very ancient traditions in it, such as Egyptian stories of Isis, the Sumerian myth of the descent and ascent of Inanna, and the related Assyrian myth of Ishtar’s descent to the netherworld. It usually remains unclear whether one should understand these analyses as indicating direct borrowing from Egyptian or Assyrian traditions by those who invented the myth of Wisdom’s fall or only as denoting the original source in terms of the history of ideas ...

... Valentinus’s relationship to the Wisdom myth, however, remains unclear, since Wisdom is not mentioned in any of the fragments of his own works. If he was familiar with a Sethian teaching of Adam’s creation, it seems possible to assume that he knew the Wisdom myth that also belongs to the Sethian cosmogonic tradition. Nevertheless, there is no positive evidence that Valentinus himself subscribed to this explanation, and it is possible that he, like some other early Christians of the second century, explained the origin of the world as a result of the good God working with dubious hulē.

Dunderberg, Beyond Gnosticism, pp. 103-4.


(Dunderberg's commentary on Ptolemy/Ptolemaeus's version of Valentinianism are fascinating and I will likely post them in a new thread)
Last edited by MrMacSon on Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jair
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by Jair »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 2:53 pm
ABuddhist wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:18 am ... Christians (originally a Jewish sect) ...
Not necessarily, and, with increasing commentary about evidence of influence of both Greco-Roman literature and Roman imperial tropes in the NT literature, it's less likely Christianity arose directly out of Judaism or directly via a Jewish sect.

There's evidence of both para-Jewish influences such as via so-called 'gnostic' sects and their literature and so-called Judaizing of them. Scholarship is only just beginning the deep dive into this.

One example is the fairly-broad Valentinian, early Christian literature: from it's slightly different creation myths, each with different key aeons and other entities eg. Sophia/Wisdom or Logos, to it's alignment with Marcionism


Wisdom is introduced in the Valentinian myths of origin as one of the eternal beings (aeons) issuing from the Father of All. As the youngest member of the divine family, dwelling at the greatest distance from the Father, she disrupts the peace of the divine household acting by herself, without having due permission from her consort, Desired, or from the Father. In this way, Wisdom generates imperfection that needs to be removed from the perfect realm of Fullness. From this point on, two stories are intertwined in the Valentinian myth of Wisdom. One is an account of the cosmic consequences of her action. The most important of them is the emergence of the imperfect Creator-God (demiurge), who creates a defective world outside the divine realm. The other story is that of Wisdom herself. The flawed part of her is expelled from the perfect realm; an account of the repentance, conversion, and restitution of this part follows [in the myth]

... similar stories of Wisdom’s failure can be found in other early Christian sources ...

The clearest indication of the pragmatic value of the Wisdom myth is its recapitulation in a Valentinian deathbed ritual called “redemption” (apolutrōsis). For those Valentinians who performed this ritual, the Wisdom myth was salvific knowledge. However, the practice of the redemption ritual...was not common to all Valentinians ...

... this myth contains other features connected to issues that were of vital importance to ancient schools of thought ... the Valentinian myth emphasizes Wisdom’s conversion, which corresponds to the demand for conversion in philosophical schools ...

... the most noteworthy feature in the Valentinian myth of Wisdom is the keen interest shown toward the emotions she experiences during her temporary exile from the divine realm. Her feelings of love, joy, loneliness, and sadness are connected with the key moments of the story. Emotions account for Wisdom’s action in the divine realm, they characterize her sojourn outside the divine realm [elsewhere: hē ektos plērōmatos Sophia], and they are presented as forming the basic material from which the world was created ...

... emotions were discussed with great intensity in ancient schools of philosophy, since the therapy of emotions was perhaps the most important advantage the teachers in these schools promised to their students ...

... Valentinian teachers were engaged in the broader discussion about the healing of harmful emotions and that this engagement becomes visible in their interpretations of the myth of Wisdom. What Valentinians had to offer in the intellectual marketplace of their time was a distinctly Christian theory of how desire can be cured. For them, Christ was the healer who “came to restore the emotions of the soul.” Or, seen from another perspective, Valentinians contextualized their faith in Christ by expressing it in terms that made it seem more understandable, and more readily acceptable, to those having received a philosophical education.


Ismo Dunderberg, Beyond Gnosticism: Myth, Lifestyle and Society in the School of Valentinus, Columbia University Press, 2008: pp.95-7.



On origins and/or sources:


The tale of Wisdom’s fall was no innovation of the Valentinians. They took it over from an earlier tradition and expanded certain elements that were already present in previous versions of this myth. The background of the myth of Wisdom’s fall has been approached from several perspectives. First, scholars have traced very ancient traditions in it, such as Egyptian stories of Isis, the Sumerian myth of the descent and ascent of Inanna, and the related Assyrian myth of Ishtar’s descent to the netherworld. It usually remains unclear whether one should understand these analyses as indicating direct borrowing from Egyptian or Assyrian traditions by those who invented the myth of Wisdom’s fall or only as denoting the original source in terms of the history of ideas ...

... Valentinus’s relationship to the Wisdom myth, however, remains unclear, since Wisdom is not mentioned in any of the fragments of his own works. If he was familiar with a Sethian teaching of Adam’s creation, it seems possible to assume that he knew the Wisdom myth that also belongs to the Sethian cosmogonic tradition. Nevertheless, there is no positive evidence that Valentinus himself subscribed to this explanation, and it is possible that he, like some other early Christians of the second century, explained the origin of the world as a result of the good God working with dubious hulē.


Dunderberg, Beyond Gnosticism, pp. 103-4.


(Dunderberg's commentary on Ptolemy/Ptolemaeus's version of Valentinianism are fascinating and I will likely post them in a new thread)
Assuming from this post that you are more open to the idea of gnostic origins, how does this inform your ideas on Revelation? Do you believe it to be a more purely Judaic work? Essentially I’m curious as to your take on the discussion I had above with ABhuddist.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by MrMacSon »

Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:06 pm Assuming from this post that you are more open to the idea of gnostic origins, how does this inform your ideas on Revelation?
That post was only addressing ABhuddist's "Christians originally a Jewish sect" mini-statement.

I don't think 'Christian origins' are black or white ie. I don't think they're a simple dichotomy of Jewish origins or gnostic origins ( and I say "they're" rather than "its" meaning (a) all the different books of the NT and (b) it's likely that the time frame for significant near-final development of the key NT texts extends well into the second century ad/ce ).

Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 3:06 pm Do you believe it to be a more purely Judaic work? Essentially I’m curious as to your take on the discussion I had above with ABhuddist.
Revelation comes across (to me) as mostly an eccentric [para] Jewish text with Christian bits added as (i) chapters 1 and two, (ii) the last chapter, chapter 22, and (ii) the odd reference to Jesus inserted therein (even just a verse here or there).


I was/am intrigued with your post -
Jair wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:58 pm If we remove any Christ-interpretation from the Lamb passages in Revelation, we are left with some very odd passages where an actual sacrificial lamb is being depicted as worthy of praise and worship equal to that of the one “who sits on the throne”. Wouldn’t this be considered far too blasphemous to be a Judaic text?
- particularly in relation to something I had seen and posted beforehand
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:39 am
A different Greek term for lamb is used in G.John and Revelation: amnos in the Gospel, arnion in Revelation. In the Gospel the Lamb is seen as a purely redemptive one who takes away sin, whereas in Revelation the Lamb’s role involves both redemption and judgment.

Ben Worthington, Revelation, New Cambridge Bible Commentary, CUP, 2003: p. 32

And you asked a good question with
Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:16 am ... do you think a non-christianized interpretation of Revelation is better understood as coming from a potential Jewish Gnostic sect, as opposed to more classic Saddusaic Judaism of the time?
I'm not sure I have the answer, but it and similar questions are worth exploring.

As is
Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:55 am I want to ask about Jewish willingness to worship a second power in heaven. On the surface this would seem to break Torah commandments.
It's worth noting that, with the Jerusalem Temple being destroyed, the Jerusalem priesthood was subsequently displaced to Galilee and collectively began the process of writing the Tosefta and what became the Mishnah, so one might imaging there was a far bit of variation in what was discussed and reaction to the discussions and dialogue, and that might have involved distant Jewish communities such as, but not limited to, the one/s in Alexandria. It would have been fascinating times with so much new Jewish and Christian literature, some overlapping of course, yet much of which has likely perished, as well as new broader Greco-Roman philosophical discourse, etc.
Post Reply