The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

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MrMacSon
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Re: The Book of Revelation

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The Genre of Revelation

... Revelation, in view of its audience, must also be set in the context of Greco-Roman prophecy ...

Hebrew protoapocalyptic and apocalyptic literature was highly synthetic in character; indeed it was rather like a vortex taking in materials from all directions, including from Greco-Roman sources from the Hellenistic era onward ... Certain social factors affected the development of apocalyptic literature, the chief of which seems to have been the social dislocation caused first by the exile, then by life under occupation in the Holy Land, by the loss of the Jewish war in the A.D. sixties, and perhaps lastly by the loss of the Bar Kokhba rebellion ...

The Society of Biblical Literature definition, arising out of its Seminar on Apocalyptic Literature...says that an apocalypse is “a genre of revelatory literature with a narrative framework, in which a revelation is mediated by an otherworldly being to a human recipient, disclosing a transcendent reality which is both temporal, insofar as it envisages eschatological salvation, and spatial insofar as it involves another, supernatural world”.91 Present, mundane reality is interpreted in light of both the supernatural world and the future. For the book of Revelation this entails beginning with the present experiences of the churches and trying to help them interpret and endure those experiences given John’s visions of what is above and beyond. This is clearly minority literature written in a somewhat coded way for persons enduring some sort of crisis.

... Apocalyptic then is primarily a matter of the use of a distinctive form – visions with often bizarre and hyperbolic metaphors and images. Some apocalypses focus almost entirely on otherworldly journeys without saying much about the end of human history. In other words historical apocalypses are not the pattern for the whole genre.

The very heart of apocalyptic is the unveiling of secrets and truths about God’s perspective on a variety of subjects, including justice and the problem of evil, and what God proposes to do about such matters. This literature is the dominant form of prophecy in Jewish contexts from the second century B.C. to the second century A.D., and it reflects the authors’ belief that they lived in the age when earlier prophecies were being fulfilled, and, therefore, it was right to contemplate what God’s final answer and solution would be to the human dilemma. This dominance of apocalyptic also reflects the deeply held conviction that God’s people lived in dark times when God’s hand in matters and God’s will for believers were not perfectly evident. God’s plan had to be revealed like a secret for matters in human history were mysterious and complex.

It is my view that the major cause of the shift from traditional prophecy to apocalyptic during the era mentioned was not the absence of traditional-style oracular and sign prophets abroad (eg. John the Baptist) but the conviction that God’s people were living at the dawn of or actually in the eschatological age. The final things had already been set in motion, and under such circumstances it was appropriate to talk about the end of the end times. It is no accident that the historical apocalypses begin to disappear from Jewish literature after A.D. 70 ...

When one delves into Greek and Roman literature, one quickly learns that there was a widespread belief in the pagan world that dreams and visions were real means by which gods and demigods could reveal truths to and instruct human beings. But not just dreams and visions are pertinent to the discussion of how John’s audience would hear Revelation. There is also the oracular tradition in the Greco-Roman world about the succession of emperors and empires. We find this sort of material in the Sibylline Oracles. One example will suffice from the Eighth Sibylline Oracle, which seems to see the terminus of things in the reign of Hadrian and so comes from within twenty years of the date of Revelation:


When the sixth generation of Latin kings will complete its last life and leave its scepter, another king of this race will reign, who will rule over the entire earth, and hold power over the scepter; and he will rule well in accord with the command of the great god; the children and generation of children of this man will be safe from violation according to the prophecy of the cyclic time of years.

When there will have been fifteen kings of Egypt, then, when the phoenix of the fifth span of years will have come ... there will arise a race of destructive people, a race without laws, the race of the Hebrews. Then Ares will plunder Ares, and he will destroy the insolent boast of the Romans, for at time the luxuriant rule of the Romans will be destroyed, ancient queen over conquered cities. The plain of fertile Rome will no longer be victorious when rising to power from Asia, together with Ares, he comes. He will arise arranging all these things in the city from top to bottom. You will fill out three times three hundreds and forty and eight cycling years when an evil, violent, fate will come upon you, filling out your name

Sib. Or. 8.131–150; trans. D. Potter, Prophets and Emperors, p.104.


The sixth generation of Latin kings in all likelihood refers to the Flavians, with Nero being the sixth Caesar, who is in turn a part of the sixth generation (cf. the number 666 of the Neronian anti-Christ figure in Revelation). I refer to this example to show that the character of Revelation would not necessarily have seemed so foreign to the Gentile mind, which was well familiar with the notions of revelatory dreams, visions, and oracles about human history. A detailed knowledge of the Jewish practice of gematria would not be required to realize that various of the numbers in Revelation had symbolic significance. Jewish apocalyptic imagery offered a new twist, but the story was still about political matters and the rise and fall of rulers and realms and their times and seasons. This larger Greco-Roman context also makes clear that it would be unlikely for John’s audience to see his work as not historically referential. Rather, it would be viewed as some sort of symbolic but nonetheless prophetic material involving the history of the period leading into the final future of humankind, unveiling the overarching and underlying supernatural forces involved in the human drama.

One of the major points I have made in my earlier study of prophecy is that it is important to distinguish between prophetic experience, prophetic expression, and prophetic tradition. The book of Revelation is certainly not simply a transcript of a prophetic experience, as its epistolary framework makes clear. Rather the seer has incorporated into a complex literary whole a report of his vision or visions reflected upon in light of the Hebrew Scriptures and a variety of other sources. John had visions and then fashioned an apocalyptic prophetic work to express not merely what he had seen but what bearing that vision had on his audiences. This means we might well not have an apocalypse at all had John not been some distance from his audiences. Rather he might have just shared most of the visions orally with his churches as they came, without resorting to a literary creation.

We probably should not imagine John on Patmos poring over Hebrew Scripture scrolls and then creating a literary patchwork quilt. The visions that came to John came to a Scripture-saturated mind and to a mind well acquainted with popular and mythical images of the larger Greco-Roman world. What John heard he may have transcribed almost verbatim, but what he saw he had to describe and thus draw on his existing mental resources. When one sees images and symbols in odd combinations, one must grope for analogies to describe the experience (hence the repeated use of the phrase “it was like ...”). One must resort to aspective, metaphorical, mythological, and sometimes multivalent language. One must turn to somewhat universal symbols, which explains why such works have been able to communicate across time and helps explain why these works were preserved. But paradoxically it is also true that apocalyptic prophecy always requires interpretation or explanation. It is indeed a somewhat coded form of language, and those not knowing that universe of discourse will be in the dark.
....< . . snip . . >
Apocalyptic literature is basically minority literature, and often even sectarian literature, the product of a subset of a subculture in the Greco-Roman world. While it is not always true that such literature is written in a time of crisis or for a people experiencing crisis or persecution at that specific point, it is certainly written for people who feel vulnerable in a world that largely does not concur with their own worldview. In the case of Revelation, there is probably enough internal evidence to suggest that there had been some persecution and even martyrdom and more was expected.

It is not surprising then that apocalyptic prophecy often has a political dimension, dealing with the dominant human powers that appear to be shaping the destiny of God’s people. Whether it is Revelation portraying Rome as a modern-day Babylon or Daniel portraying a succession of beastly empires, there is frequent discussion of these matters in such literature but always under the veil of apocalyptic symbols and images. One must be an insider to sense the referents and the drift of the polemic and promises. This aspect of apocalyptic literature grows directly out of the classical Jewish prophetic material in which nations and rulers, including Israel’s, are critiqued, but here the critique is by “outsiders” (those who do not have controlling access to the political process) using “insiders” language.

It is not just the loss of the monarchy that changed Jewish prophecy and prophets, but its replacement by a hostile and anti-Semitic foreign power ...

There is a great fascination in apocalyptic literature with symbolic numbers and so something more must be said about gematria. There are, of course, the oft repeated numbers of four, seven, ten, twelve, and their multiples. Knowing that seven means completion or perfection helps one to understand not only why there are the number of seals that one has in Revelation (a complete and comprehensive set of judgments) but also why...666...signifies chaos and incompletion. There is also a tendency in this literature to speak of time elusively or elliptically – such as Daniel’s “a time, a time and a half, and a time” or his famous interpretation of Jeremiah’s seventy weeks ...

Apocalyptic literature, especially apocalyptic prophecy, often attempts to deal with theodicy. For instance, Revelation reassures the saints not only about personal individual vindication in the afterlife but about justice for God’s people in the end. Indeed it is at the point where cosmology and history meet, when heaven comes down to earth in the form of the Messiah and the New Jerusalem, that there is finally both resolution and reward for the saints, and a solution to the human dilemma caused by suffering and evil. Suffering and death are overcome by resurrection and everlasting life, and evil is overcome by the last judgment. The persuasiveness of this schema depends on the audience’s belief in not only a transcendent world but also a God who cares enough to intervene in human history and set things right once and for all.

Ben Worthington, Revelation, New Cambridge Bible Commentary, CUP, 2003: pp.33-9


91 J. J. Collins, ed., Apocalypse: The Morphology of a Genre, Semeia 14 (1979), p. 9. To this definition D. Helholm added that it is literature intended for a group in crisis with the intent of exhortation or consolation by means of divine authority.


Jair
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by Jair »

EDIT: Looks like we were posting at the same time. I’m going to read your post now and hope you didn’t answer anything in it that I asked in this post thus ending up rambling. Lol
MrMacSon wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:39 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:17 pm
Jesus is called "Lamb of God" in gJohn a couple of times:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb G286 of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb G286 of God!


A different Greek term for lamb is used in G.John and Revelation: amnos in the Gospel, arnion in Revelation. In the Gospel the Lamb is seen as a purely redemptive one who takes away sin, whereas in Revelation the Lamb’s role involves both redemption and judgment.

Ben Worthington, Revelation, New Cambridge Bible Commentary, CUP, 2003: p. 32
This is interesting. It certainly helps challenge the church tradition that GJohn and Revelation were written by the same author. Although I had my doubts about that when I noticed that in Revelation, in the authors vision, Jesus tells the author that he is alive. This would be strange coming from the disciple whom Jesus loved, who wrote of the resurrection and the incident with doubting Thomas, leading me to conclude that John of Patmos and John the Evangelist cannot be the same individual.

But going back to the main point you quoted and the one I am most curious about; it’s these passages in Revelation that I wonder about:

"12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.” 13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”"
— Revelation 5:12-13 (NASB20)

If Revelation is originally a pre-Christian Judaic text, with these verses included, then these verses are very interesting. Putting my religious and spiritual biases aside for a moment, I wonder where this imagery could come from if not a Christian text?

Apologies if I ask too many questions. I am by no means a scholar. Just curious. People here seem knowledgeable on these subjects and very on form when it comes to research. I’m definitely a bit out of my league in that regard.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by GakuseiDon »

Jair wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:55 pmApologies if I ask too many questions. I am by no means a scholar. Just curious. People here seem knowledgeable on these subjects and very on form when it comes to research. I’m definitely a bit out of my league in that regard.
Me too, but that doesn't stop me making an opinion! :cheers: My personal motto: "Often wrong; never in doubt!"

The issue I have to the idea of Revelation being hardly a Christian text is to ask why Christian texts can't have imagery, allegory, visions, etc? We see something similar in the Shepherd of Hermas, a very popular text in the Second Century that almost made it into canon. Lots of imagery and allegory, but no mention of "Jesus" or "Christ". Yet no-one doubts it as being a Christian text AFAIK (with the exception of Earl Doherty): http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... pherd.html

Worth a read, to compare with the Book of Revelation!
davidmartin
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by davidmartin »

Ode 22 contains that same dragon imagery as Revelation. I'd be interested in the linguistics around this, is there an influence of one on the other? I haven't checked what the Lattke says about this in a while and have forgotten maybe I will look it up. Not sure in the Odes this is apocalyptic it seems to have already occurred so the context different?
He who overthrew by my hands the dragon with seven heads, and set me at his roots that I might destroy his seed;
You were there and helped me, and in every place Your name surrounded me.
Your right hand destroyed his evil venom, and Your hand leveled the Way for those who believe in You.
And It chose them from the graves, and separated them from the dead ones.
It took dead bones and covered them with flesh.
But they were motionless, so It gave them energy for life
Jair
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by Jair »

davidmartin wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 1:13 am Ode 22 contains that same dragon imagery as Revelation. I'd be interested in the linguistics around this, is there an influence of one on the other? I haven't checked what the Lattke says about this in a while and have forgotten maybe I will look it up. Not sure in the Odes this is apocalyptic it seems to have already occurred so the context different?
He who overthrew by my hands the dragon with seven heads, and set me at his roots that I might destroy his seed;
You were there and helped me, and in every place Your name surrounded me.
Your right hand destroyed his evil venom, and Your hand leveled the Way for those who believe in You.
And It chose them from the graves, and separated them from the dead ones.
It took dead bones and covered them with flesh.
But they were motionless, so It gave them energy for life
Doesn’t Babylonian Tiamat, Canaanite Lotan, and even in some attestations Israelite/Judahite Leviathan have seven heads? This tradition could go way back to the Bronze Age.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Numbers/Numerology in The Book of Revelation

Post by MrMacSon »

Certain numbers in Revelation are significant and symbolic.

Three numbers — four, seven, and twelve, along with their multiples — feature repeatedly in the visions, and they are significant in light of the Hebrew Bible.

The first number in the book sets the pattern for the others to be likewise interpreted symbolically. In Rev. 1:4 reference is made to “the seven Spirits who are before His [God’s] throne.” While some commentators try to take this literally and say that there were seven angels or spirit beings around God’s throne, it is clear the reference is to the Holy Spirit, since God has just been mentioned in the preceding wording, “Him who is and who was and who is to come” (Jesus is mentioned in the following verse, v. 5).

Seven in the OT, and elsewhere in Revelation, figuratively refers to completeness or fullness: it's rooted in the seven days of creation. The OT uses seven often in this connection (for instance, Gen. 4:15, 24 and Ps. 79:12 refer to the sevenfold anger of God, expressing His full or complete anger which satisfies His justice). The tabernacle had seven lamps because Israel’s earthly temple and its furniture were the microcosmic copy of the archetypal heavenly temple of God, and the number symbolized the fact that God’s dwelling was intended to be extended throughout the earth.

Revelation features seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls, which are so numbered in order to underscore the completeness of God’s worldwide judgment.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

The number four was also used in the OT and other Jewish literature to express completeness. The four rivers of Gen. 2:10-14 referred to the totality of creation. The tribes of Israel were divided into four groups in the wilderness, and each group was located at one of the four points of the compass. In Revelation, four is used with reference to the worldwide or universal scope of something, as in the earth’s four corners (see Rev. 7:1; 20:8) or the four winds (7:1). The allusion to Exod. 19:16ff. (“lightnings, sounds and thunders”), appears at four critical points in Revelation (4:5; 8:5; 11:19; 16:18) to express the universality of the final judgment.

The four corners of the earth are the particular targets of the first four trumpets and the first four bowls, expressing God’s judgment over His creation. Names used of God and the Messiah (“the One who lives for ever and ever,” “the Lord God Almighty,” “the One who sits on the throne,” “the Alpha and the Omega”) are repeated in Revelation in patterns of four and seven, expressing God’s complete rulership over the whole earth.

The “seven spirits” are mentioned four times, thus linking complete sovereignty and worldwide dominion.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

The number twelve is the number not only of Israel, as represented in the twelve tribes, but of the new Israel, as represented in the twelve apostles. Significantly, the number twelve occurs twelve times in the description of the new Jerusalem (21:9–22:5).

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Interestingly, “Babylon” appears six times, possibly to associate it with the number of the beast (666).

From Revelation, A Shorter Commentary, by G. K. Beale with David H. Campbell, 2015
klewis
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

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I will add my two cents to this subject. The Book of Revelation was written from the onset, as a Christian document. However, the source material is derived from the Hebrew Bible (see Overview of how the author of Revelation copied from the OT). This can be seen when one takes the intersection of the texts that is derived from a parallel in Ezekiel-Isaiah and organize the content of Revelation that matches:

Ezekiel-Isaiah Draft.

The author used the text of Isaiah chapters 6 to 29, and the characters found within it, as the source material for Jesus' actions. In the same way that Matthew depicted Jesus as the new Moses and had him do Moses things, such as but not limited to:
  • Have a ruler try to kill him as a baby (Herod->Jesus, Pharaoh->Moses).
  • Fled the land until the ruler died.
  • Stood on a mountain, fasted for 40 days, received/defended the law.
  • Moses wrote five books, Jesus made five great sermons in Matthew.
The issue is how much effort does the writer take to reshape the source text into a fully Christian document, a little, or a lot? I see the writer did not spend much effort. Rather, the author spent more time doing parallel formations where each section of the book has several parallels with other sections. It is my belief that the work was rushed into publication and as such did not correct the many glaring mistakes.

Shameless Plug:
My work can be found in How John Wrote the Book of Revelation: From Concept to Publication
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mlinssen
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by mlinssen »

klewis wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:23 am I will add my two cents to this subject. The Book of Revelation was written from the onset, as a Christian document. However, the source material is derived from the Hebrew Bible (see Overview of how the author of Revelation copied from the OT). This can be seen when one takes the intersection of the texts that is derived from a parallel in Ezekiel-Isaiah and organize the content of Revelation that matches:

Ezekiel-Isaiah Draft.

The author used the text of Isaiah chapters 6 to 29, and the characters found within it, as the source material for Jesus' actions. In the same way that Matthew depicted Jesus as the new Moses and had him do Moses things, such as but not limited to:
  • Have a ruler try to kill him as a baby (Herod->Jesus, Pharaoh->Moses).
  • Fled the land until the ruler died.
  • Stood on a mountain, fasted for 40 days, received/defended the law.
  • Moses wrote five books, Jesus made five great sermons in Matthew.
The issue is how much effort does the writer take to reshape the source text into a fully Christian document, a little, or a lot? I see the writer did not spend much effort. Rather, the author spent more time doing parallel formations where each section of the book has several parallels with other sections. It is my belief that the work was rushed into publication and as such did not correct the many glaring mistakes.

Shameless Plug:
My work can be found in How John Wrote the Book of Revelation: From Concept to Publication
Well, hard to read the reviews and not buy the book. I don't care at all about Revelations but couldn't resist
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mlinssen
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by mlinssen »

klewis wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:23 am I will add my two cents to this subject.
If you're looking for a new project, or perhaps you're just bored, you can have a go at another set of source criticism samples:

https://www.academia.edu/41668680/The_7 ... al_cousins

Page 9 is where the parallels begin. It's one of my earliest papers, with a slow start. All versions are in full, WEB, for the same reasons that you had. Berean would be best now, it allows 2,000 verses without written permissions - but I didn't know anything back then and started with ESV until I realised, halfway in, that there perhaps may be an issue...

I still curse the days that I had to go back and change them all to WEB - including the references to and quotes of them.
Ah well
klewis
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Re: The Book of Revelation is hardly a Christian text

Post by klewis »

If you're looking for a new project, or perhaps you're just bored, you can have a go at another set of source criticism samples:
Wow, that is a lot of work you did. I will take a closer look at it when I get home.

I began with using the NASB version of the Bible and hand to revert to the WEB version when they told me that the permission was for 2 years. I know what that meant $$$$$. So I have experienced your pain. The charts seen in my book is what I finalized on which means that there were many rewrites. I tried to make it in a manner that the reader will intuitively see the connection between the source and the book of Revelation.

I have a lot of Genesis-Exodus Numbers parallel formation charts which I work on every now and then. I hope to put it all together one day and publish it. It is like my Revelation book, where I can show how things were put together, and the order they were put together in a few actions. My goal is to make it intuitive for the reader.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the book and will be going through the 140 pages you wrote.
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