Why Wells had read P.-L. Couchoud better than Doherty and Carrier

[andrewcriddle]

On the identification of Jesus with Michael

FWIW the Catholic scholar Danielou claimed that 2nd (Slavonic) Enoch is a Jewish-Christian work and that in it Michael represents Christ and Gabriel the Holy Spirit. If he is right this would probably be a 2nd century CE development.

Andrew Criddle

Interesting:

The dates attributed to 2 Enoch have varied widely from the 1st century BCE to medieval times. Those supporting early dates have generally regarded 2 Enoch as a Jewish work, althought some scholars have regarded it as an early Jewish-Christian work, e.g. Danielou who suggests that Michael and Gabriel in the 7th heaven correspond to the Son and the Holy Spirit respectively.

http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2017/07/ ... enoch.html

Curiously, also Ascension of Isaiah is regarded by Norelli as an early Jewish-Christian work, and there also (just as in the Hymn to Philippians) the Son receives the name "Jesus" only after the resurrection, so I wonder if we are dealing with the same archangel (Michel) in action, here.

Where does Danielou write about Michel?

The theology of Jewish Christianity by Danielou

Andrew Criddle

[GakuseiDon]

In all fairness, though, such a dating of Jesus under Claudius and Pontius Pilate, as we know, is impossible, meaning in turn that Irenaeus can be seen as possibly trying to reconcile contradictory traditions about Jesus's dating - or as ignorant about the chronological impossibility of what he was saying.

If his dating was obviously wrong to the audience he was writing for, then I doubt that he was trying to reconcile contradictory traditions. It would have to be assumed that his audience didn't know about who was Emperor when Pilate was governor, from which it might be inferred that Irenaeus himself didn't know, which you suggest above. Pilate was often part of the story; the Emperor of the time of the crucifixion, not so much.

Would you be kind enough to clarify what you mean by "separates Jesus from Pilate"? Because I am aware of several people who do so. Doherty et al do this, and on the more historically grounded front so do Lina Einhorn and G. R. S. Mead - although they move Jesus in opposite directions, with Mead's moving him to around 100 BCE and Einhorn's moving him to circa 50 CE.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I had the initiator of Jesus's crucifixion in mind: when named it is always Pilate. Though from memory maryhelena has Jesus crucified by the Jewish king of around 100 BCE. And you might well be right about Mead and Einhorn, I'm not familiar with their work. Do we have any explicit names other than Pilate for the initiator of the crucifixion? (ETA: Here I'm thinking about crucifixion on earth)

[maryhelena]

I had the initiator of Jesus's crucifixion in mind: when named it is always Pilate. Though from memory maryhelena has Jesus crucified by the Jewish king of around 100 BCE. And you might well be right about Mead and Einhorn, I'm not familiar with their work. Do we have any explicit names other than Pilate for the initiator of the crucifixion? (ETA: Here I'm thinking about crucifixion on earth)

For the record.....

Antigonus, High Priest and King of the Jews, was executed by the Roman Marc Antony in Antioch in 37 b.c.

Josephus states that Mark Antony beheaded Antigonus (Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8–9). Roman historian Cassius Dio says that he was crucified and records in his Roman History: "These people [the Jews] Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and scourged, a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans, and so slew him."[6] In his Life of Antony, Plutarch claims that Antony had Antigonus beheaded, "the first example of that punishment being inflicted on a king."[7]

Antigonus II Mattathias

37 b.c. is approximately 70 years prior to the dating of the gospel Jesus crucifixion story if using a 3 year ministry re gJohn. Antigonus made King in 40 b.c. and crucified, on a cross/stake 3 years later in 37 b.c.

The only time I might have referenced 100 b.c. would be in relation to the Toledot Yeshu story - but there again, the hanging up of Yeshu dating re time of a Queen Helena is problematic as that was not the name of the wife of Alexander Jannaeus. Anyway, for the record, I don't date any crucifixion of a Yeshu or a Jesus figure to a 100 b.c. dating.

[GakuseiDon]

Antigonus, High Priest and King of the Jews, was executed by the Roman Marc Antony in Antioch in 37 b.c....

Anyway, for the record, I don't date any crucifixion of a Yeshu or a Jesus figure to a 100 b.c. dating.

Thanks for the clarification, maryhelena. Apologies, I wasn't sure of the details and dates involved.

[maryhelena]

Antigonus, High Priest and King of the Jews, was executed by the Roman Marc Antony in Antioch in 37 b.c....

Anyway, for the record, I don't date any crucifixion of a Yeshu or a Jesus figure to a 100 b.c. dating.

Thanks for the clarification, maryhelena. Apologies, I wasn't sure of the details and dates involved.