Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

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Giuseppe
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Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

I read:

Allison weighs eight arguments against the empty tomb as follows:

The account is only singularly attested; it comes from Markan creativity. (pp 117-119)
The account is inspired by scripture, especially Dan 6. (pp 119-125)
The words about the women fleeing the tomb, “they said nothing to anyone” (Mk 16:8), is a literary explanation for why no one had heard of the empty tomb before. (pp 125-127)
The account involves the miraculous. (p 128)
Paul knows nothing of an empty tomb, so the account must have originated after him. (pp 129-136)
Mark’s original ending was not about an empty tomb. (pp 136-137)
If people had visions of Jesus and had come to believe in his resurrection, it’s easy to see how an empty tomb legend would have arisen; human beings create religious fictions to justify beliefs all the time. (pp 137-138)
There is remarkable precedent for — indeed, an overwhelming abundance of — legendary stories about empty tombs and disappearing bodies. (pp 138-140)

https://rossonl.wordpress.com/2022/04/1 ... revisited/

Then I read that the arguments pro historicity of an "empty tomb" would be:


The view combated in Mt 28:11-15 — that the disciples robbed the tomb — shows that everyone agreed the tomb was empty. (pp 141-142)
The early Christians gave no attention to the tomb of Jesus, which is strange in light of Jewish veneration for the burial places of prophets and martyrs. Only an empty tomb accounts for this lack of veneration. (pp 142-145)
Paul’s language in I Cor 15 assumes an empty tomb. (pp 144-145)
Visions of Jesus without an empty tomb would not trigger a resurrection belief. (pp 145-146)
The early Christians could not have gotten away with preaching the resurrection of an individual (a wacky idea) in Jerusalem unless, at the very least, the tomb of that individual was known to be open and empty. (pp 146-150)
Apologetic interests, if present in the resurrection narratives, are undisclosed. (pp 150-152)
The empty tomb account of Mark 16:1-8 (like Jesus’ baptism in Mk 1:9-11) undergoes so much apologetic glosses and expansions in the other gospels, that it looks a historical memory that couldn’t be ignored, rather than something invented. (pp 152-153)
In a culture where women were seen as inferior to men, and the testimony of women was viewed as unreliable, the early Christians would not have invented female witnesses to the empty tomb. (pp 154-162)

Commenting them one after the other:

  • The view combated in Mt 28:11-15 — that the disciples robbed the tomb — shows that everyone agreed the tomb was empty. (pp 141-142)

    ...for sake of argument?

  • The early Christians gave no attention to the tomb of Jesus, which is strange in light of Jewish veneration for the burial places of prophets and martyrs. Only an empty tomb accounts for this lack of veneration. (pp 142-145)

    this point is very strange. Then does Dallison buy sostantially the Doherty's point that the Paul's silence about the Golgotha and the tomb of Jesus is part and parcel of the greater Sound Silence about the historical Jesus in Paul? Was not Doherty attacked polemically by Maurice Casey for this idea?

  • Paul’s language in I Cor 15 assumes an empty tomb. (pp 144-145)

    but only "according to scriptures", sure.

  • Visions of Jesus without an empty tomb would not trigger a resurrection belief. (pp 145-146)

    Here I lose totally Dale Allison. Also visions of Jesus without a historical Jesus would trigger a resurrection belief.

  • The early Christians could not have gotten away with preaching the resurrection of an individual (a wacky idea) in Jerusalem unless, at the very least, the tomb of that individual was known to be open and empty. (pp 146-150)

    Idem as above. There is someway the strong desire of Allison that the Christian religion is based on a rational foundation.

  • Apologetic interests, if present in the resurrection narratives, are undisclosed. (pp 150-152)

    as reaction to Marcion the Apologetic interests are surely disclosed: the Risen Jesus has a carnal body absolutely identical to the former.

  • The empty tomb account of Mark 16:1-8 (like Jesus’ baptism in Mk 1:9-11) undergoes so much apologetic glosses and expansions in the other gospels, that it looks a historical memory that couldn’t be ignored, rather than something invented. (pp 152-153)

    Again: the marcionite threat explains validly the need of a such "historical memory".

  • In a culture where women were seen as inferior to men, and the testimony of women was viewed as unreliable, the early Christians would not have invented female witnesses to the empty tomb. (pp 154-162)

    This is strange. A solution may be that the women allegorize the Marcionites (where the women had more rights) so, as the argument goes, if even they witnessed the flesh of the Risen one, then even more so the "true" Christians.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

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An attactive feature of Marcionism was its inclusion of women. According to Pagel, even though Marcion retained a masculine image of God, he included women in positions of leadership. “The heretic Marcion scandalized his orthodox comtemporaries by appointing women on an equal basis with men as priests and bishops.”

https://rogerdhansen.wordpress.com/2011 ... n-heretic/

So it is explained why the Judaizers needed women at the tomb: their Marcionite enemies could be more easily persuaded (that the Risen Jesus had a real body) by the same women held by them in more high leadership positions.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Ken Olson »

I think Loren Rosson's critique of Dale Allison's case for the historicity of the Empty Tomb is well worth reading, though readers should bear in mind that neither Allison nor Rosson are mythicists.

https://rossonl.wordpress.com/2022/04/1 ... oFlSwEhaYI

While Rosson is critical, IMHO, he's still too kind to Allison's case. I've been meaning to post on this, but haven't finished reading Allison yet. The whole case presupposes Allison's prior case in the previous chapter which argues that Jesus' burial in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea is historical. So Allison's case in the chapter Rosson is criticizing is that the tomb was most likely empty if we first accept that there was a tomb in which Jesus was buried and that people at the time of the events narrated in the story knew where it was. If you don't accept that premise, Allison' case is going to be much weaker.

Best,

Ken
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Giuseppe
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Giuseppe »

Ken Olson wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:01 am I think Loren Rosson's critique of Dale Allison's case for the historicity of the Empty Tomb is well worth reading, though readers should bear in mind that neither Allison nor Rosson are mythicists.
Rosson has become Jesus Agnostic after the reading of Carrier's On the historicity of Jesus, however.
Ken Olson wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:01 am The whole case presupposes Allison's prior case in the previous chapter which argues that Jesus' burial in a tomb by Joseph of Arimathea is historical.
About Joseph of Arimathea, a reason to doubt his historicity is precisely the apologetical way how he is introduced: as a secrete disciple of Jesus, justifying so why none knew him before his first mention in a story.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

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I wonder, Ken, why you read similar books by Allison. Isn't it evident that a book of such kind is designed in advance to wink a little at the believers?
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Paul the Uncertain »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:25 am
In a culture where women were seen as inferior to men, and the testimony of women was viewed as unreliable, the early Christians would not have invented female witnesses to the empty tomb. (pp 154-162)

This is strange. A solution may be that the women allegorize the Marcionites (where the women had more rights) so, as the argument goes, if even they witnessed the flesh of the Risen one, then even more so the "true" Christians.
Not so strange. Mark has no male witnesses left at that point in the story, unless Joseph ex Machina comes back in a now-lost ending. So of course the witnesses are women, witnesses to an empty hole in a rock, in a city that has been (or shortly will be) sacked by the Romans at the time Mark is writing.

Mark has been using Paul for writing prompts throughout. There is more than enough in 1 Corinthians to serve as a prompt for an empty tomb story. Mark is telling a story with a "knowing narrator." To sustain the framework, Mark's narrator needs some in-line explanation for his "knowingness," and these women are discussed in that role in the thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9318

If Mark had wanted a specifically male witness, then he could have had Joseph reappear, or identified the "young man" in the tomb, or perhaps had one of Mary's sons accompany her to the tomb along with or instead of her daughter. Mark didn't, so it is reasonable to conclude that the lack of male "witnesses" was no problem for him, and so no evidentiary weight attaches to his choice.

ETA: Nothing in that should be taken to disparage Allison's overall program. I am planning to read his recent books soon, about which I have heard only good reports.
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Ken Olson
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Ken Olson »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:19 am I wonder, Ken, why you read similar books by Allison. Isn't it evident that a book of such kind is designed in advance to wink a little at the believers?
I would like to read completely unbiased authors, but I haven't found any.
Secret Alias
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Secret Alias »

I have noted many times that there is only explicit reference to the Messiah in the Jewish Scriptures. Daniel 9:26 says he will die and disappear.

https://www.sefaria.org/Daniel.9.27?ven ... ah&lang=bi

I find it difficult not to see this prediction fulfilled in the short ending. No Patristic witnesses though.
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by ABuddhist »

Secret Alias wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:01 am I have noted many times that there is only explicit reference to the Messiah in the Jewish Scriptures. Daniel 9:26 says he will die and disappear.

https://www.sefaria.org/Daniel.9.27?ven ... ah&lang=bi

I find it difficult not to see this prediction fulfilled in the short ending. No Patristic witnesses though.
Such a reference would add support to the idea that Mark's short ending was the original ending - with no missing content.
Secret Alias
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Re: Dale Allison on the pious women at the tomb as historical evidence

Post by Secret Alias »

Odd that no one mentions the connection though.
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